Naming plants in the forum.....

[slipperfreak]

Originally Posted by Beckster

I've really been trying to figure the proper grammar out lately, but I'm still confused about a few scenarios. I don't have many orchids, but the hybrid names seem to confuse me the most (I get the basic Genus / species naming). These are the examples in my collection I'm having trouble with:

Dendrobium Emma White - Is "Emma White" the hybrid name or cultivar? And if it's the cultivar, why isn't the hybrid name listed? Only the cultivar should be listed in single quotes, right? Is that the only way to tell the difference?

Miltassia Charles M. Fitch - Same as above question.

Blc Pokai Tangerine x Chocolate Sun - Blc is the species (Brassolaeliocattleya), but has this one not been registered yet as a hybrid and named? I'm assuming that "Pokai Tangerine" and "Chocolate Sun" are hybrid names of the orchids that this one has been crossed with. And in hybrids, is it just too long to list the species as well as the genera that they originate from? Just the Genera are listed?

Ascocenda Princess Mikasa 'Mood Indigo' - I'm guessing that "Princess Mikasa" is the Hybrid name and "Mood Indigo" is the cultivar (which means that my plant is cloned?)

Paphinia Majestic - I was originally thinking that "majestic" was the species, but then I heard that this one is a hybrid of Paphinia cristata x Paphinia herrerae, so that would make it the hybrid name right?

Okay, I think that's it for now. Thanks for listening! I'm barely starting to wrap my head around this...

Becky

Scenario no. 1: "Emma White" is the hybrid name.

Scenario no. 2: "Charles M. Fitch" is the hybrid name.

Scenario no. 3: First off, BLC. is not a species. It's an artificial genus created when three genera are in the plant's parentage (in this case, Brassavola, Laelia, and Cattleya). Pokai Tangerine and Chocolate Sun are both hybrids, and are listed here because the cross has not been registered yet. I'm not sure what you mean by the last part of your question. A plant name always has a genus name and a specific epithet, or a hybrid name, depending on if it's a species or a hybrid. The genus name is always given, because you can have the same species or hybrid names across different genera. We don't list the parentage of a hybrid when a name is written because it would be too long.

Scenario no. 4: You are right about the first part, but just because this plant has a cultivar name does not mean it was cloned. A cultivar name is just given to a plant to distinguish it from all other examples of that particular species or hybrid. Usually they are given to exceptional cultivars or ones that are awarded. Though the term "clone" is used interchangeably with cultivar, it is really just a slang and doesn't necessarily mean that you have a cloned plant. If you buy a plant from a catalog that says it is a "mericlone", then you have a real clone.

Scenario no. 5: I don't believe there is such a species of Paphinia called "majestic". There is only the hybrid, "Majestic", which is what you have.

[Beckster]

Originally Posted by slipperfreak

Scenario no. 3: First off, BLC. is not a species. It's an artificial genus created when three genera are in the plant's parentage (in this case, Brassavola, Laelia, and Cattleya).

Whoops! That's what I meant.

Originally Posted by slipperfreak

Scenario no. 4: You are right about the first part, but just because this plant has a cultivar name does not mean it was cloned. A cultivar name is just given to a plant to distinguish it from all other examples of that particular species or hybrid. Usually they are given to exceptional cultivars or ones that are awarded. Though the term "clone" is used interchangeably with cultivar, it is really just a slang and doesn't necessarily mean that you have a cloned plant. If you buy a plant from a catalog that says it is a "mericlone", then you have a real clone.

I think I get it. Thanks for clearing that up!

I'm sure I'll have many more questions, but my brain hurts less now .

[jowben1]

As a new(2 year) grower, I find this really comfusing, and type my names as I find them on the plant label. I am sure many are wrong.

[susiep]

Wow, this is a very helpful thread. Thanks!

[orchidsamore]

I think a lot of time and energy is wasted being too concerned about the correct grammar and spelling of an orchid name.

The family alliance is important to know its care care but that is easy and better IDed from the plant and leaf structure

For the casual hobbyist rather than worry if someone capitalized a hybrid or improperly capitalized a species - the standard is species are in Latin and hybrids are in English. (or easier not-Latin since there are a few Japanese and Spanish names)

There are some very old exceptions like Lc Canhamiana the same as the species L canhamiana. Current standards do not allow the hybrids to be the same as the species so there are only a couple of very old ones.

Then there have been so many family reclassifications that just about every Cattleya alliance tag is now wrong.

I do not believe there is any orchid still valid as a Blc - the Bassovola digbyana was reclassified as a Rhyncolaelio. L. purpurata was first change to S. purpurata and now Cattleya purpurata all within a year. Most Blc are now Rlc which is also confusing since Rl stands for Rhyncolaelio and there is no Laelia in the hybrids. Many Laelia have been reclassified to Cattleya especially the ones most often used for hybrids.

There still could be crosses with Bassovola and Laelia but the plants left in that group were not very popular for these hybrids.

[Beckster]

Originally Posted by orchidsamore

I think a lot of time and energy is wasted being too concerned about the correct grammar and spelling of an orchid name.

It's probably not a huge deal to most people, but it really bothers me to know that I've been improperly labelling my orchids. I'd rather take the time and learn the proper grammar.

Originally Posted by orchidsamore

I do not believe there is any orchid still valid as a Blc - the Bassovola digbyana was reclassified as a Rhyncolaelio. L. purpurata was first change to S. purpurata and now Cattleya purpurata all within a year. Most Blc are now Rlc which is also confusing since Rl stands for Rhyncolaelio and there is no Laelia in the hybrids. Many Laelia have been reclassified to Cattleya especially the ones most often used for hybrids.

There still could be crosses with Bassovola and Laelia but the plants left in that group were not very popular for these hybrids.

So how could I find out what the current classification of my orchid is if it's labelled as a Blc?

[slipperfreak]

Originally Posted by Beckster

So how could I find out what the current classification of my orchid is if it's labelled as a Blc?

According to OrchidWiz, your plant is a Rhyncattleanthe (Rth. or Cattleya x Guarianthe x Rhyncholaelia) by current classification. The members of the Cattleya alliance are all very similar and their taxonomy is confusing. Most often, you will probably see plants like yours referred to as Blc. At least, that's the way it is where I live.

[quiltergal]

Just to add further clarification/confusion to the cultivar names I'll give an example.

Slc. (or whatever the taxonomists are calling it now) Jewel Box has two distinct cultivars 'Scheherazade' and 'Dark Waters'. They look somewhat similar but the coloration is much brighter in 'Scheherazade', while 'Dark Waters' is deep and rich. They still have the same parents, but like human siblings can look quiet different from each other.

[Viperalus]

Thanks for this thread, it's very informative to a newbie like me.

Originally Posted by Beckster

It's probably not a huge deal to most people, but it really bothers me to know that I've been improperly labelling my orchids. I'd rather take the time and learn the proper grammar.

I agree with Beckie here.
I am newbie to orchids but not to animals. From 1996 until some months ago I was keeping reptiles and invertebrates and I always liked to use the correct tagging so to know what we were talking about with others.

Classification is already chaotic, let's make it easier between us just by writing correctly the names.

By the way; in animals the classification is not so chaotic as in plants. But do you have any idea what is happening in entomology?
I don't want even to imagine
(though I don't know if it is more chaotic than plants; I think plants win the title)

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by orchidsamore

I think a lot of time and energy is wasted being too concerned about the correct grammar and spelling of an orchid name.

I disagree, for the reason in which you gave an example for...

Originally Posted by orchidsamore

There are some very old exceptions like Lc Canhamiana the same as the species L canhamiana. Current standards do not allow the hybrids to be the same as the species so there are only a couple of very old ones.

Another example is Paph Maudiae.

This makes not only ID difficult, but often confuses people.

Proper spelling and grammar makes a big difference to me.

Distinguishing species, from manmade hybrid, from natural hybrid, makes finding cultural info faster and easier.

I remember when someone thought Paph Maudiae was a species and the person had a hard time finding information on Paph Maudiae.

And, there was another instance where...

I inadvertently gave someone on the OB an incorrect spelling to an orchid that I currently grow, and they had a hard time finding information on it.

Originally Posted by orchidsamore

The family alliance is important to know its care care but that is easy and better IDed from the plant and leaf structure

That can be true for certain plants, but there are many in which you cannot make such a generalized assertion.

One such example that many people commonly know about are the epiphytical Laelias and the rupicolous Laelias.

Other lesser known examples are out there. One of those examples of what I'm talking about pertains to the genus Disa (which I feel is the best example if you've done extensive research about the habitats of each species).

While Disa aurata, Disa cardinalis, Disa tripetaloides, and Disa uniflora usually grow near streams, rivers, or waterfalls. Some Disas such as Disa cornuta do not. Instead Disa cornuta are often found in moist grasslands.

So, in my opinion, just knowing about the genus name doesn't cut it for me for finding cultural information.

Leaf structure to an untrained individual "All looks the same." So this can be somewhat unreliable. Especially when they actually do look all the same.

Originally Posted by orchidsamore

For the casual hobbyist rather than worry if someone capitalized a hybrid or improperly capitalized a species - the standard is species are in Latin and hybrids are in English. (or easier not-Latin since there are a few Japanese and Spanish names)

I think it's a good general guideline. But again, many "casual hobbyists" will run into some of those hybrid names that resemble Latin names.

I state again Paph Maudiae being one of those names.

Some others in the Cattleya alliance have this issue as well.

Why do you think they stopped allowing hybrid names to resemble Latin names? Probably because it got confusing. Especially when people didn't know to observe proper grammar and spelling, or if they just got plain lazy and intentionally lower cased genus names with species names and cultivar names.

While I'm not one to talk about Paphs in great detail.

I believe that it has been mentioned on the OB a few times that Paph Maudiae is a rather complex situation as far as names are concerned. From what I understand, this is not just referring to one hybrid, but a complex of hybrids.