Phal post-mortem... - Page 4 - Orchid Board

Nic100 · #31 10-25-2009, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undergrounder

I'm not sure, i got a flask of these and the first one flowered peloric, so it will be interesting to see whether all the others do too.

BTW - keep me posted about the others flowering - will be interesting to know what they do!

King_of_orchid_growing:) · #32 10-25-2009, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undergrounder

Well new leaves need to be made of something, they don't just spring out of nowhere. And the stuff they're made of is created by plants solely through the process of photosynthesis. And with no leaves your orchids can't photosynthesise and so it can't grow new leaves... that's the chicken and egg reason why Phals always die when the leaves fall off. Only certain Phal. species can survive without leaves (they photosynthesise through their roots), but sadly yours isn't one of them.

Nicky...

I'm going to give you my thoughts about what Undergrounder said and try to back up what I say with as much scientific knowledge as I know. Then you decide what's the more correct information. Deal?

Phals have green roots. Whether the tips of the roots are green or reddish-brown, it doesn't matter.

The reddish-brown is just the plant's pigmentation.

The silvery white cells are epidermal cells that make up the roots' velamin and these cells don't contain chloroplasts, but that doesn't mean that the cells inside the velamin layer doesn't contain chloroplasts. In the case of Phalaenopsis the cells within the velamin layer do contain chloroplasts.

How do you account for the roots turning green when you wet them?

The green is the result of chloroplasts being present in the cells. When there are chloroplasts that means there's chlorophyll present. If the cells contain chloroplasts with chlorophyll, photosynthesis is completely possible.

The exception is when the roots were not exposed to light, therefore, the chloroplasts change their function and behavior in the cells. You can tell if the chloroplasts within the cells have stopped functioning in the process of photosynthesis and have switched to another method of energy production because they're either a translucent white or a bit yellowish. The yellow tint is the result of the plant cell's pigmentation. In this case, the plant is using sugars stored in certain cells for energy.

Plants have the ability to be very adaptable like this.

This is what I'm learning in botany class right now.

Well...

Whatever you decide to do with the mass of roots is up to you.

I just thought it would be a good way for you to try something out of the ordinary out.

Fail or succeed it wouldn't matter because the stakes are so low. If you succeeded, my reasoning would be that you would've learned a new skill and have a cool story to tell.

But again this is for you to decide.

King_of_orchid_growing:) · #33 10-25-2009, 02:47 PM

FYI, chloroplasts have a bacterial ancestry. They have double membranes with space between the membranes. Chloroplasts also contain their own set of DNA separate and unique to itself compared to the plant cell that contains the chloroplasts.

There shouldn't be any reason why a plant's cell cannot produce more chloroplasts if it needed it.

King_of_orchid_growing:) · #34 10-25-2009, 02:58 PM

Another thing to remember is...

Your mum's Phal is not a species, it's a hybrid. It's a genetic combination of species.

If it's a combination of species, for the sake of argument, don't you think that genetically the plant would contain at least one parent that carried the genes to have photosynthetic roots? If that was the case, then given circumstances that allowed for the gene to kick in and do it's thing, don't you think that the plant would automatically do this to survive? Therefore, it would have the capability to have photosynthetic roots.

I dunno, this is how I'm thinking about it logically based off of what I know and am currently learning in school. This would honestly be my argument.

Again...

I implore you to sit and think a bit about what information is being given to you and see what makes sense.

Sometimes emotions can overrule logic, and that's not always good.

Seriously, you don't have to take my word for it, I'm secure enough to say go and look it up on your own through properly validated scientific resources that are impartial to you or me or whoever.

See what makes sense.

It really doesn't matter if you believe me or not. It matters if you learn the truth.

I believe that having the mind of a wondering child is important, because that gets us asking the all important "What. Why. Where. Who. When. How." questions so that we can really learn without preconceived notions, old ideas, or incomplete ideas or concepts holding us back.

King_of_orchid_growing:) · #35 10-25-2009, 03:12 PM

I'm sorry, but just realize this is not a matter of choosing sides between me or Undergrounder.

I just see way too many weak links in his argument against trying to save the Phal, based off what I know and am learning.

His argument is what I'm attacking, not the person.

In my opinion, his argument appears to be a leaky bucket with lots of microscopic holes. But it still appears to be a leaky bucket nonetheless.

Therefore, if Undergrounder can come up with a stronger more valid argument for what he's saying, I welcome the opportunity to read what he has to say.

King_of_orchid_growing:) · #36 10-25-2009, 03:34 PM

You're a pretty charming and charismatic person Undergrounder, I respect that.

But...I seriously would like to know what you know.

Undergrounder · #37 10-25-2009, 03:57 PM

Thanks KOOG i always welcome a good argument, i don't disagree that the roots don't contain chloroplasts, and that 'some' photosynthesis would be going on.

But i don't think there is nearly enough in the roots that Nicky has to get any new leaf growth growing, even if for argument's sake they were all green. If it was a big sprawling healthy green root mass on the side of a tree i wouldn't rule it out, but that little ball of struggling roots i just don't see it happening at all. Even allowing for your experimental idea that those old roots will all fill up with chlorophyll over time.

And then considering that the crown is half rotted already and basal growth points are likely dead anyway, nup.

But anyway i wasn't saying she shouldn't try it, i was just pointing out before it became a serious project that it wasn't worth getting hopes up or spending money on or something like that. Experimental theory aside, i've never seen a dead root ball spark up new leaves, you only get basal kiekis when you have a stored supply of energy (in the old leaves) or an obvious way of making it (again in the old leaves). Lose the leaves and (without a massive system of established, green roots), and it's end game.

It would be a cool thing to prove me wrong, but i think KOOG that you'd really need a Phal. wilsonii or at least some established mounted plant with an immediate capability for photosynthesis through the roots and with a significant root mass to boot. Keep in mind the thing has to stay alive long enough to gain enough excess energy to push out a new growth point in the first place. The jungles of Malaysia maybe, the side of a fence in Liverpool?

King_of_orchid_growing:) · #38 10-25-2009, 04:01 PM

Good form.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undergrounder

...i don't disagree that the roots don't contain chloroplasts, and that 'some' photosynthesis would be going on.

You mean: "...I don't disagree that the roots do contain chloroplasts, and that 'some' photosynthesis would be going on...", correct? (double negative sentence form)

a.k.a.:

"I agree that the roots do contain chloroplasts, and that 'some' photosynthesis would be going on..." (positive sentence form)

Okay...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undergrounder

...But i don't think there is nearly enough in the roots that Nicky has to get any new leaf growth growing, even if for argument's sake they were all green. If it was a big sprawling healthy green root mass on the side of a tree i wouldn't rule it out, but that little ball of struggling roots i just don't see it happening at all...

Fair enough.

We do have to take into consideration the plant's energy expenditure to produce more chloroplasts and grow new leaves and new roots, as well as metabolize.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undergrounder

...Even allowing for your experimental idea that those old roots will all fill up with chlorophyll over time...

Okay...I get where you're going with this...

I believe you're addressing energy expenditure issues.

Chloroplasts can move within the cell that contains them. I've seen it under a microscope in lab during class.

(amendment)

Chloroplasts apparently can't be transferred between cells (my apologies for any misinformation that was spread).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undergrounder

And then considering that the crown is half rotted already and basal growth points are likely dead anyway, nup.

It's highly probable you're right about this..., but I also wouldn't rule out that they aren't all dead. Maybe a couple adventitious meristems may still be alive. The only ways to tell for sure prior to anything growing from the meristem is to use a high powered microscope and dissection to find the meristematic tissue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undergrounder

But anyway i wasn't saying she shouldn't try it, i was just pointing out before it became a serious project that it wasn't worth getting hopes up or spending money on or something like that. Experimental theory aside, i've never seen a dead root ball spark up new leaves, you only get basal kiekis when you have a stored supply of energy (in the old leaves) or an obvious way of making it (again in the old leaves). Lose the leaves and (without a massive system of established, green roots), and it's end game.

I still don't think she has anything to lose. Even if the roots all died, she'd still be left with a good piece of wood mount for later should she need it.

I don't know, it doesn't seem like a very big project to me. But then again...that's me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undergrounder

...you'd really need a Phal. wilsonii or at least some established mounted plant with an immediate capability for photosynthesis through the roots and with a significant root mass to boot.

From what I'm understanding you're also implying that Phal species such as Phal braceana, Phal honghenensis, Phal lowii, Phal taenialis, and Phal wilsonii are not the only species of Phals that have the ability to grow new leaves should all the leaves fall off the plant and the roots remain and have roots that are able to photosynthesize to some extent or another.

You're implying that many other species and hybrids of Phals have this ability as well, should the situation arise.

I agree.

I can add Doritis pulcherrhima to this list. I used to own one that tried to make a comeback when all the leaves dropped and the roots remained.

From what I'm reading, you're more or less addressing the problems with energy expenditure rather than the topic of photosynthetic roots and photosynthesis.

Although, I do understand what you're saying, because it appears pretty clear that you're stating that the majority of most Phals' photosynthetic processes occur in the leaves.

You're understood.

Respect.