Say we have a plant that's the same hybrid or species as the parent, but has a notable different trait. We back-cross the hybrid with this other plant with a different trait than one of the original parents, and we get some progeny that may be different in some notable way.
Is this likely?
Then say we take this different progeny, and we cross it back with the other parent of the original hybrid.
Is this likely to produce something like the original hybrid, or a new varied one?
I'll give an example:
Rhynchonopsis Dragon Charmy (Phalaenopsis japonica x Rhynchostylis gigantea)
Rhynchonopsis Dragon Charmy x Rhynchostylis gigantea 'Cartoon' = maybe more clear spotting on flowers?
(Rhynchonopsis Dragon Charmy x Rhynchostylis gigantea 'Cartoon') x Phalaenopsis japonica 'Minmaru' = maybe smaller plant as well as better spotting of leaves?
Or, disregarding all of this, do we instead just attempt a hybrid/grex using the same parent species/hybrids, but with different traits to maybe produce a different variety of a given hybird/grex?
So
Rhynchostylis gigantea, orange flower (if that even exists) x Phalaenopsis japonica 'Minmaru' = slightly different flower and slight smaller plant?
I know genetics is a roulette wheel, and breeding can be like playing blackjack (you're at 15, and you could get a 6, but you could also get everything else) but there's gotta be way to sort of...make a pretty good guess on what you'll get.
Given the amount of time that one must invest to eventually see a flower, serious hybridizers don't just make crosses without a clear plan. As far as what crosses will lead to the desired outcome (or at least have a chance of it), it comes down to experience. And having excellent stud plants to choose from. You can't predict with hypotheticals. If you're serious about doing this, I suggest that you apprentice yourself to someone who is doing this. Sorry, there is no shortcut. One way or another, it's going to take 5-7 years or more from making the cross (maybe a little shorter with Phalaenopsis, but for Catts that's reasonable) to seeing the result. That's a long time to wait to determine that you didn't know what you're doing if the result is a dud.
There are a lot of strategies thay can come into play but one is to take a plant with a remarkable trait and cross it with a large high quality plant. The idea is to get a bunch of good strong genes into the progeny as well as the remakable trait. Then you just bloom hundreds of plants and pick the best ones.
Besides all of the good info already contributed - yes, all of the scenarios may lead to the sought-after enhancements. Will they? There's only one way to know for sure...do it and see, which is not a trivial task.
In your example you are dealing with a limited gene pool so with all the inbred crossing and back crossing what you are really doing is exploring the contents of your plants genome. After four generations (probably hundreds of seedlings) you will have a pretry good idea of whats in there.
What most breeders do is just self the plant. Its a simple way to make a living punnet square of possibilities based on the plants genome, and its the same hybrid (your strategy makes plants which all have different hybrid names) if there is potential for something amazing in there, you can get it out by blooming dozens or hundreds of progeny. It really isnt roulette at all. You just need to be able to grow out tons of plants. No way to know for each one, but as a group they are predictable.
for me, this is the crux of what it means to get "good genetics" and "stud plants". sure, those plants usually will have outstanding traits (flower size, color, etc), but what real breeders want is consistent expression. you probly know that sometimes plants that look like one thing can be something else. inside, the genetics are different. we average home growers have no real way to tell, so have no idea that it won't breed the same as a true member of the species. so, 5 years after trying to use it as a parent and you find out you wasted a lot of time and optimism. this is just one examples of the challenges that novice breeders face in the name of stable genetics.
breeding is so complex. primary hybrids are one thins, but when you add in tertiary or back crosses (forget complex hybrids) the possibilities become too much for any mortal to calculate or predict. asking these sorts of questions, while a valid and worthy task, is akin to asking about drivetrain ratios when you are first learning how to ride your bike at age 5. have you had any successful backcrosses yet?
the best breeders also have the advantage of acres of greenhouses. so sure, after many years it looks like they just know what will happen with a cross, and one cross gives thousands of perfect plants. you know that isnt the case.
it might be my humble suggestion to approach this subject from another viewpoint: just do it and then add to the data pool when you have results. this will teach you more than a million posts. ask yourself 2 ??'s: what is your goal for the cross (pick one you like, but just have something as a target), and then what plants do i need to get to possibly achieve that goal. then its just a matter of sourcing the best plants (genes) possible, which as you know can be one of the toughest parts.
tl;dr - just go for it! good luck
edit: what i really meant to say is sometime there can be a bit of "gatekeeping" in the orchid world, it seems...and my attitude is, who cares what other people say you need to do. if you want to make some attempt at a cross, just go for it....just have others going as well so when your original idea is a total fail you might have some poo that sticks to the wall!!
In your example you are dealing with a limited gene pool so with all the inbred crossing and back crossing what you are really doing is exploring the contents of your plants genome. After four generations (probably hundreds of seedlings) you will have a pretry good idea of whats in there.
What most breeders do is just self the plant. Its a simple way to make a living punnet square of possibilities based on the plants genome, and its the same hybrid (your strategy makes plants which all have different hybrid names) if there is potential for something amazing in there, you can get it out by blooming dozens or hundreds of progeny. It really isnt roulette at all. You just need to be able to grow out tons of plants. No way to know for each one, but as a group they are predictable.
Hmmm, okay. Makes sense. There are a couple of plants that I have that I was curious about selfing or sibling...-ing(?) in the case of having two plants from the same mother plant.
Probably worth trying before doing anything with hybridization.
---------- Post added at 05:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 PM ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by My Green Pets
If you haven't seen Roy Tokunaga's talk on orchid genetics and breeding, you may find it interesting:
I still get something new out of it every time. I must have seen it 20 times and I just realized how the amphidiploids work! Its incredible how they learned this stuff!
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