Dealing with rescued phalaenopsis

[greenochre]

I sometimes buy 'surprise packs' with sad plants, and sometimes there are phals, always with degraded substrate and many rotten roots.

Though I manage to save almost all the other plants, I haven't had any luck with phals, and it always happens the same way - I cut rotten roots, repot, orchid seems to get better, even starting growing new leaves or roots for a month or two, and then root rot is back again and I lost it.

I tried seramis, SH with LECA, a bag with sphagnum, pure bark, DIY mix of bark, lava rock and sphagnum - all with the same result. And the more I tried to figure out what I was doing wrong, the more confused I got because there is so much controversial info.

1. Dealing with the root rot. Almost all guides tell you should cut all the black/brown/mushy roots, otherwise the infection will spread again. But from what I know about plants in general, root rot is caused by fungi which aren't actually pathogens, but a normal part of any substrate and can't be eliminated. Healthy plants have good immunity so they aren't affected, but if a plant is damaged it becomes vulnerable to it. Nobody says you should find and cut all of the rotten roots with any other plant, instead, you should concentrate on providing the right environment, and then the plant will be able to fight the fungi by itself.

And as far as I know, no plant has any roots for a lifetime - old roots inevitably die and new roots grow, that's how plants work. If an infection from an old dying root always spread, no plants would survive.

Also, if black/brown/mushy roots are so dead, how come pretty often there is a perfectly healthy green root growing from the old mushy one?

How can I determine which roots to cut and which to leave? Also, should I apply any fungicide?

2. Flower stems. Some folks say if you have an orchid in a bad state, and it has a flower spike, you should cut it to promote the growth of roots and leaves. Others claim that flower stems work as a storage for useful elements, and also any wound is a stress, so you shouldn't cut them.
How can I decide?

3. Moving or not moving?
I currently have three rescued phals - two I got about 2 month ago, they have flower spikes growing, but about a week ago I spotted root rot (AGAIN). I decided to switch to mounts - my mounted aerangis is doing much better, and at least I'll be able to check roots every day and see what's going on. The third one I got a few days ago and mounted too. But I usually soak my mounted orchids 1-2 times a week + mist every day. I'm not sure only misting will be enough. But to soak them I'll have to move them, and I heard any movement is stressful and can be damaging.
What should I do?

***
Some details about phals I currently have. These two are those which I got two months ago and mounted recently. They're in poor shape, and dehydrated, and both have new flower spikes growing. One is growing new root, and the second one (on the clay pot) had a growing root, but unfortunately, it stalled.

Besides this yesterday I found out I have a thrips outbreak (first time in my life aaah), and these two babies are affected too. I usually use beneficial bacteria (Bacillus thuringiensis) as a prophylactic treatment (they kill insects, but don't do any harm to the plants, and I never have spider mites after I started using them), but last moths I run out of the treatment, and probably that's why goddamn thrips are pretty much on every plant. fuck.

The third one I got recently, it's currently in bloom, and it was in much better shape than the previous two, and had several new roots growing, but still some rotten roots. I decided not to cut anything but a few that were more like slime, and leave all others. Then I mounted it on wood I bought a while ago in an aquarium store for wabicusa (which didn't work out).

If some roots are dead, will they just fall away naturally? Or should I cut some more? Should I cut flower spikes or not?

I sprayed and watered all my plants with a solution of dish soap and neem oil (1 teaspoon per liter of each), also I ordered kelpak (I have dry kelp powder but from what I have read here, kelpak is much better) and bacterial treatment. What else should I do?

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[Roberta]

My advice would be, don't cut roots - you really can't tell what is truly dead. If there is black mushy stuff, it's the velamin (the spongy coating on the root) that may have rot.. you can strip it off with your fingers. The center "string" is actually the "working" part of the root, and even when bare can help hydrate the plant while it's growing new ones. So instead of going for the scissors, just rinse the roots well under running water, remove anything black and slimy with your fingers, rinse again, and pot it up in fresh medium. Stuff that doesn't come off easily, leave it. (You can have black spots on roots that are still good, and yes they can make new branches) It will grow some new roots, but in the meantime will be able to absorb water and nutrients. Those root "strings" will also help hold the plant firmly in the new medium, which is really important - if it wobbles, the delicate growing tips of the new roots are easily damaged. The only way that the plant can absorb water is through roots (not through leaves) so if it doesn't have roots, it will dehydrate, It then is a race between growing new roots before it uses up all of its reserves and dies... Sometimes one will survive, but usually a rootless Phal will lose the race.

As for old flower spikes, I just leave them as long as they are green. Sometimes they branch and produce more flowers. Or the plant may "recycle" the tissue and moisture in the old spike. So cutting an old spike that is still green is an aesthetic decision... if it bothers you, cutting it is OK, but the plant may benefit, certainly won't be harmed if you don't cut it.

[Arizona Jeanie]

Disclaimer: I'm not an expert.
I am a serial Phal rescuer, and generally successful. On a small scale.
I agree with everything Roberta says above.
Except I do cut off flower spikes on rescues, I don't know if it makes any difference. It does keep me from accidentally breaking them off.
One thing you might try is to NOT treat the roots with dish soap and neem oil, also no peroxide. These can be phytotoxic. It should not be necessary to treat with anything, but if you feel you must, use a fungicide such as Physan if it's available to you.
A plant with no roots is dehydrated, I'll give the whole plant a soak in plain water for an hour or so before potting, then water more frequently than I water established plants. Theoretically they don't absorb water through the leaves, but they always look better after soaking.
Moving them doesn't seem to stress them. The no-moving suggestion is advice for keeping flower spikes straight. Moving to the sink and back shouldn't be a problem, just be careful not to injure leaves and roots.
Please keep us posted on your successes, I'm also interested in others' suggestions.

[Johndeaux22]

Another thing to consider is humidity. Most Phal. species come from hot, extremely humid jungles in Southeast Asia with few exceptions. Mounting an already dehydrated plant, then hanging it in the house isn’t likely to benefit it in the short term. They are also likely to lose more roots once potted in a different medium, as the old roots, however sad they may be, were acclimated to, and grown in something different. In my house I struggle to keep enough humidity around Phal’s to keep them well hydrated. The kelpak should help, in my own collection it has given impressive results. A probiotic such as Quantum Total may also help.

[Dalachin]

Good advice from members! I’d add… keep struggling phals warm, above 70 if you can, and humidity helps. I grow mounted plants on tented shelves with an auto mister, but even with these near-tropical conditions, most phals, with the exception of some species like Celebensis, javanica, lindenii, etc, grow better and bloom better in pots for me, especially the larger hybrids. It can take a long time for phals to fully adapt and establish on mounts, years even. When I mount I place the roots against the mount, and cover roots that have been moist in a pot with spagnum to help them absorb water while the plant grows new roots.

I have phals doing well on mounts, in spag mixes and in semi-hydro, but good old medium bark in a pot seems to be the most reliable medium for me. I use the smallest pot I can get the roots into, small pots (2-3 inch) get watered several times a week, especially when the medium is fresh and less absorbent. Larger pots get watered once or twice a week, with a good bark soak at least once a week.

Are you sure they are thrips? There are many types of beneficial springtail-like bugs that can be in the soil and on plants. Someone here shared a post with cute photos of them awhile back.

Don’t treat roots with anything except Kelpak and water unless you must. Since joining the forum I too cringe at root-cutting, seems unnecessary.

I do find that moving stressed phals can accelerate their decline, but it can also save them if they really hate their current situation. Plants have to grow new roots for new media, this takes energy. If waiting is an option, new root growth before moving to a new pot or mount is ideal.

Having lots of plants is good for me… keeps me from fussing over them. They grow at their own pace!

[greenochre]

Originally Posted by Johndeaux22

Another thing to consider is humidity. Most Phal. species come from hot, extremely humid jungles in Southeast Asia with few exceptions. Mounting an already dehydrated plant, then hanging it in the house isn’t likely to benefit it in the short term. They are also likely to lose more roots once potted in a different medium, as the old roots, however sad they may be, were acclimated to, and grown in something different. In my house I struggle to keep enough humidity around Phal’s to keep them well hydrated. The kelpak should help, in my own collection it has given impressive results. A probiotic such as Quantum Total may also help.

I live in Barcelona, and my humidity in winter is 50-70% and 70-90% in summer - I heard a lot of times it's very hard to maintain proper humidity for mounted orchids, but I keep getting root rot with substrates. I had this problem with all of my plants here, because I came from Ukraine which is much drier and the substrates and watering schedule that worked there doesn't work here.

With everything else moving to chunkier, airier, lighter substrate helped, but not with phals - and with mix of bark and rock I watered them only twice, sometimes once a week (depending on the state of substrate), and still got rot.

And I don't even have an idea of a substrate that will be even more light and airy.. but I'm open to suggestions!

---------- Post added at 05:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Dalachin

Good advice from members! I’d add… keep struggling phals warm, above 70 if you can, and humidity helps. I grow mounted plants on tented shelves with an auto mister, but even with these near-tropical conditions, most phals, with the exception of some species like Celebensis, javanica, lindenii, etc, grow better and bloom better in pots for me, especially the larger hybrids. It can take a long time for phals to fully adapt and establish on mounts, years even. When I mount I place the roots against the mount, and cover roots that have been moist in a pot with spagnum to help them absorb water while the plant grows new roots.

I have phals doing well on mounts, in spag mixes and in semi-hydro, but good old medium bark in a pot seems to be the most reliable medium for me. I use the smallest pot I can get the roots into, small pots (2-3 inch) get watered several times a week, especially when the medium is fresh and less absorbent. Larger pots get watered once or twice a week, with a good bark soak at least once a week.

Are you sure they are thrips? There are many types of beneficial springtail-like bugs that can be in the soil and on plants. Someone here shared a post with cute photos of them awhile back.

Don’t treat roots with anything except Kelpak and water unless you must. Since joining the forum I too cringe at root-cutting, seems unnecessary.

I do find that moving stressed phals can accelerate their decline, but it can also save them if they really hate their current situation. Plants have to grow new roots for new media, this takes energy. If waiting is an option, new root growth before moving to a new pot or mount is ideal.

Having lots of plants is good for me… keeps me from fussing over them. They grow at their own pace!

I live in Barcelona, it's 10a hardy zone, and it's pretty warm and humid even in winter. And I'm doing to add a humidifier under Phals, I have a spare one.

With pots, I don't know which substrate to try. My last attempt was big chunks of bark + a bit of sphagnum + lava rock, I watered 1-2 times a week and still got rot (

[buzzlightyear]

I can relate to all of your confusions.

It's one of the most common confusions that hit orchid growers.

Some never figure out an answer to ALL the problem you mention.

I would say getting the right answer here is like winning the lottery but since its the new year I will be generous and give you the answer you are looking for :

Thrips.

[Mountaineer370]

When you have potted your Phals, as opposed to mounting them, what type of pots were you using? I've had the best luck with clear plastic pots with holes or slots on the sides as well as the bottom. With these pots, I use only a chunky bark medium. My indoor humidity is lower than yours, so I have to water frequently, but they seem to get plenty of air flow to the roots.

[Johndeaux22]

[QUOTE=greenochre;1012993]I live in Barcelona, and my humidity in winter is 50-70% and 70-90% in summer - I heard a lot of times it's very hard to maintain proper humidity for mounted orchids, but I keep getting root rot with substrates. I had this problem with all of my plants here, because I came from Ukraine which is much drier and the substrates and watering schedule that worked there doesn't work here.

Is it 50-70% humidity in your home? You’d likely have mold growing on your walls if it’s that high. It has been raining/snowing by me for the last week, and outdoor humidity is in the 40-45-% range, but in my house it is in the low teens between the wood stove and heater, summertime we may experience single digit humidity inside.

If you can, perhaps try and get your Phal’s into an enclosed space with good air movement and very high humidity. Less water will be lost through transpiration, and even with a compromised root system. You said you had dried seaweed powder, I’d mix some up in a bucket, and soak the plants in question for an hour or two, then treat again once your order of Kelpak arrives.

[greenochre]

Originally Posted by Dalachin

Are you sure they are thrips? There are many types of beneficial springtail-like bugs that can be in the soil and on plants. Someone here shared a post with cute photos of them awhile back.

I haven't caught any insect, but I have very typical silvery strikes and holes on the leaves, with small black dots (poop) under them, and young leaves and thin-leave plants like calatheas seem to be affected the most, so I'm pretty sure.

Also, as far as I understand springtails are bigger than thrips, aren't they? I know how springtails look, but I never have seen them in my pots

---------- Post added at 08:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ----------

[QUOTE=Johndeaux22;1013000]

Originally Posted by greenochre

I live in Barcelona, and my humidity in winter is 50-70% and 70-90% in summer - I heard a lot of times it's very hard to maintain proper humidity for mounted orchids, but I keep getting root rot with substrates. I had this problem with all of my plants here, because I came from Ukraine which is much drier and the substrates and watering schedule that worked there doesn't work here.

Is it 50-70% humidity in your home? You’d likely have mold growing on your walls if it’s that high. It has been raining/snowing by me for the last week, and outdoor humidity is in the 40-45-% range, but in my house it is in the low teens between the wood stove and heater, summertime we may experience single digit humidity inside.

If you can, perhaps try and get your Phal’s into an enclosed space with good air movement and very high humidity. Less water will be lost through transpiration, and even with a compromised root system. You said you had dried seaweed powder, I’d mix some up in a bucket, and soak the plants in question for an hour or two, then treat again once your order of Kelpak arrives.

Yes, it's at home. I don't have mold anywhere but in the bathroom, but it's a very common issue in Barcelona.

I measure my humidity with cheap Chinese hygrometers from amazon, they of course aren't very precise, but I doubt their margin of error is more than 5%. And my skin and hair do wonderfully here, and in Ukraine I had to constantly use moisturizers and still had my skin too dry. Here I almost don't use any, so doubtless humidity is much, much higher

---------- Post added at 08:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:21 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Mountaineer370

When you have potted your Phals, as opposed to mounting them, what type of pots were you using? I've had the best luck with clear plastic pots with holes or slots on the sides as well as the bottom. With these pots, I use only a chunky bark medium. My indoor humidity is lower than yours, so I have to water frequently, but they seem to get plenty of air flow to the roots.

I tried both clear plastic pots with holes (never dry, I also used them for cuttings and also had tons of rot), and terracotta clay with holes I drilled myself (actually one of them I used as mount) - much better, but still resulted in root rot

But I've just thought that maybe I misinterpret what happened. I saw that those phals became more dehydrated, decided to check roots, saw new rot and decided something is wrong with substrate/watering schedule/pots.

BUT, almost rootless plant will become more dehydrated inevitably, and maybe this rotten roots wasn't actually a cause of it - maybe it was just old/damaged roots and plant was getting rid of them? And then I should leave these phals and just wait?

What is a typical root life cycle in potted phals? do they die just because they're too old?