Neo keiki leaf browning, roots are a little dry

[Roberta]

You're correct - the open sides of the plastic Neo pots improve air flow - and that big hole in the bottom lines up with the "pocket" in the center of the mound, so that there is airflow throughout the mound. Air is so important. Again, it's a Vanda. The roots need lots of air no matter how they are potted.

[Jmoney]

the plastic neo pots have large slits on the sides. there are also the clay "trumpet" pots - the whole bottom is a giant drainage hole, and it is narrow at the bottom and flares out on top for the moss ball. the clay in these pots is also a different thinner material than the usual clay pots sold here and it wicks extremely well.

I saw many of the "expert" neo growers were using trumpets and switched over last year, at least for my more well-rooted plants. at the advice of some expert growers I drilled large drainage holes into smaller clay pots for my smaller plants.

many also do very well growing in bark-based mix. seems to be much more "efficient" albeit less traditional and less aesthetically pleasing.

[alecStewart1]

Originally Posted by Jmoney

many also do very well growing in bark-based mix. seems to be much more "efficient" albeit less traditional and less aesthetically pleasing.

That Korean sumi variety that I got from Peter T. Lin that I posted about came in a bark mix.

Orchids Limited also sells a for Neos mix that's something like 1:1:1 medium and small orchid bark, charcoal and chunky/rough perlite.

It definitely drains well while still maintaining some moisture.

[estación seca]

Growing in a moss mound was developed in Japan because it's perfect for growing them outside in the Japanese summer monsoonal climate with a cool, mostly dry winter. In other climates it is more difficult to keep them that way than it is in straight bark. Most of the people here with Neo problems are trying to grow them in moss, and the problems arise when temperatures drop in fall. They can die rapidly if cool and moist. You can't go wrong keeping a Neofinetia cool, brightly lit and dry all winter. They probably won't even wrinkle.

[alecStewart1]

I'm beginning to realize the moss question is a lot more contentious than I expected.

Originally Posted by estación seca

Growing in a moss mound was developed in Japan because it's perfect for growing them outside in the Japanese summer monsoonal climate with a cool, mostly dry winter. In other climates it is more difficult to keep them that way than it is in straight bark.

I mean I guess my question would be is what's done differently for people who grow them who aren't in Japan who grow them in moss mounds?

New World Orchids is in Michigan, Orchids Limited is in Minnesota. Both don't get as hot as it can in Japan, or at least I think it doesn't.

Orchids Limited says:

During the cool season, water only so much as to keep the media from becoming "bone dry". The main focus during winter is to provide the plants with a dormant rest while avoiding prolonged wet conditions around the roots.

Kristen at New World Orchids says:

Let the plants dry out between watering; the faster your plants alternate between wet and dry, the better your roots will grow. Use ample water in spring and summer while the plants are in active growth and in flower, reducing quantities during cooler winter days.

Which I guess you could argue both are saying more or less the same thing (kind of).

This isn't even considering what fuukiran otaku (don't tell anyone at the Japanese Fuukiran Association I called them that ) in Japan do, which I've heard some put their plants in cardboard boxes in unheated garages during the winter months. Which doesn't even speak to their mizuyari (watering) scheduling in this environment.

I think another reason moss mounds are used is because, supposedly, the moss can distribute water more evenly because of how well it can wick up water.

So I guess when we say "reduce watering in cooler seasons" we don't mean "treat it like a Phal", but more so "keep it slightly damp/moist, not wet."

But then of course another series of questions you could ask is "what is it like in nature for the plant?" Obviously they don't grow on nice little mounds of moss in nature, they grow on trees or logs. Do they stay completely dry, or do they get a smidge of moisture during the cooler seasons?

If completely dry, is that what's optimal for us who grow them at home/in our greenhouse/out in the backyard? If they get a little bit of moisture, how much and how often do they get this moisture?

I might email some US vendors and ask for their opinion (might just confuse things more).

Originally Posted by estación seca

Most of the people here with Neo problems are trying to grow them in moss, and the problems arise when temperatures drop in fall. They can die rapidly if cool and moist. You can't go wrong keeping a Neofinetia cool, brightly lit and dry all winter. They probably won't even wrinkle.

I mean I think I'd like to grow mine outdoors in moss. I was already a dingus and bought the moss repotting kits from Orchid Limited, even though I was pondering just getting their bark mix for Neos.

I guess my confusion is there not being a general consensus on winter watering, in moss or not.

[Jmoney]

some of the most amazing neo collections I have seen (pics of) in North America are from, in no particular order, NJ, Toronto, Vancouver, Wisconsin, southern CA. Most but not all grow in moss mounds.

I don't claim to be an expert but I have acquired way too many in the past 3 years and find them generally easy to grow, with a small number of mishaps along the way. Cooler and drier in winter is not a bad idea but they don't stop growing. Whatever your system, plants should be rather dry within 3-5 days. Most of the named varieties, the "fukiran", do not grow like big vandas. Moss mounds retain moisture and yet retain cool humid air as well.

[Roberta]

I think that you need to drop back and look at the effect you're trying to achieve, not the "how to do it" recipes from this source or that. The moss mound approach also has an aesthetic component. If you want to really get down into the weeds with traditional culture, plan on spending lots of time learning how ALL the pieces - the mound, the pots, the environment, all fit together.

Think about what these plants experience in nature. They aren't in moss mounds, but they likely do have moss of some sort growing around them on the sides of trees in damp forests. It gets cold. In a monsoonal climate, there is little rain in winter, so less cloud cover, so brighter. There is humidity. There is dew (humidity + cold = dew). So they are never bone-dry.

Also, a drier orchid will be more cold-tolerant than a wet one. Traditional Japanese homes (of the sort the Samurai lived in, and cultivated these plants in) didn't have central heat. Not much insulation from the shoji screens in the doors of wooden houses.

I can tell you that I grow my Neos outside in coastal southern California, they get rained on and watered with sprinklers all winter. They are in baskets that dry quickly. The ones I have had for awhile, the roots hang down into the air, (1-2 feet) where they dry even faster. The common denominator is air. Air. Air. In the cold they aren't growing much, so they don't need fertilizer, and not as much water as in summer. But they aren't desert plants. So if humidity is low (like indoors with central heat) then they will need more watering than they would outside where there is natural humidity.

[alecStewart1]

Originally Posted by Roberta

I think that you need to drop back and look at the effect you're trying to achieve, not the "how to do it" recipes from this source or that.

Great point.

I got back home yesterday after work and thinking about it for a little bit I think this is how the culture for Neos in regards to watering will work for me during the colder months.

Plants in moss should be "somewhat damp" and not "wet."
Even in spring and summer, the moss shouldn't really be sopping wet.

When moss starts feeling like a sponge that's about to be crispy dry, watering with a larger eyedropper might work best to control the amount of water applied to the moss and where water is applied to a mound better. A bit tedious, but it gives more control.

If moss feels a bit too wet, almost "squishy", taking a paper towel and gently touching it against the moss (not squeezing it) to absorb some, what could be considered, excess water to where the moss is "somewhat damp."

The "somewhat damp" allows for some drying, without fully drying out the moss to where it's crispy/crunchy/bone dry. It gives that "humidity around the roots" that Roberta mentions, without being more wet than necessary.

It also lets waterings be more in parallel with the plants that are in orchid bark mixtures, which is roughly every 2 days. Maybe every 3 days for moss, kind of just depends.
If plants are chilling outside and there's a cool dry breeze, probably closer to 2. Inside on a windowsill, probably closer to 3.

I know the language is probably confusing because there's not really a lot of good words in English to describe very specific levels of moisture.

By "somewhat damp" I mean like when the state of a sponge is still "wet" but not "squishy." Like if you've slightly squeezed out some of the water in a sponge after using it, but not all of it. That probably just muddies the water a bit more, but I'm just trying to give a more clear definition of "somewhat damp."

Hopefully that makes sense.

[Jmoney]

I think you are overthinking things. People have grown neofinetia for a lot longer than "western" orchids. More recently the popularity has expanded outside the far east and popularity is growing rapidly in the US, Europe, and other regions. In nature they grow on trees, hence the original name "wind orchid" - any way we grow orchids is usually artificial in nature. We stick a cattleya in a pot which is certainly unnatural.

Moss mounds are done in large part for aesthetics, but it does work since I would say the bulk of people who call themselves neofinetia connoisseurs use this method. It is absolutely not necessary though. But I find the whole point of growing fukiran is for the aesthetic, maybe you get blooms 3 weeks a year (which I love) but the other 49 weeks it is about the plant and presentation.

I dunk my moss mounds in a bucket of water or fertilizer solution every 4-5 days. Maybe I'll use a cup for those where dunking might soak the base of the plant. But don't eyedropper it. When you water, water it thoroughly. Like for virtually all other orchids we grow. Regulate the moisture retention by the thickness of your moss base and the thickness of the mound. I personally tailor this according to the root mass. Your mound should be dry within about 5 days or so. Back when I was growing on the windowsill I would water more often in the winter due to the forced dry air than in the summer, as air circulation was lacking. The mound tells you when to water.

[alecStewart1]

Originally Posted by Jmoney

I think you are overthinking things.

Oh I definitely am.

Originally Posted by Jmoney

When you water, water it thoroughly. Like for virtually all other orchids we grow. Regulate the moisture retention by the thickness of your moss base and the thickness of the mound. I personally tailor this according to the root mass. Your mound should be dry within about 5 days or so. Back when I was growing on the windowsill I would water more often in the winter due to the forced dry air than in the summer, as air circulation was lacking. The mound tells you when to water.

Hmmm, okay. Tonight I'll see where things are from when I watered this morning. I think it's all just out of nervousness of killing off the plants unintentionally. Plus this is quite a bit different compared to all the other plants I have. Probably it isn't, though, as I'm overthinking things.