Phal bellina x Phal violacea indigo blue

[KC Kam]

Hi all,

I understand that we get Phal. Samera by crossing Phal bellina and Phal violacea but what do we get if Phal bellina x Phal violacea indigo blue?

I am not able to find any answers from the internet.

Please advice.

[estación seca]

It's still Samera. The variety of the parent doesn't matter for the name.

[KC Kam]

Originally Posted by estación seca

It's still Samera. The variety of the parent doesn't matter for the name.

Hi estacion,

Thank you for your reply. I need some help to clear my confusion.

1. Phal Samera blue = Phal bellina coerulea x Phal violacea coerulea. This Phal Samera blue is also known as Phal Samera coerulea am I right? Because i saw people calling them 2 different names but both were cross from the same parents.

2. Then it comes to my final doubt. How does breeder distinguish between the 2 Phal Samera below?
Phal bellina x Phal violacea = Phal Samera
Phal bellina x Phal violacea indigo blue = Phal Samera (purple/bluish)

Because both of them have different colors eventhough is called Phal Samera. They just say is Phal Samera just that it has Phal violacea indigo blue in its parentage?

Thanks again.

[Ray]

I believe your last statement was correct.

In orchid nomenclature, we have:

1. Genus (or nothogenus, when it is a hybrid of multiple genera)
2. Species or hybrid (more correctly known as a “grex”)
3. Type or form, and
4. Cultivar (cultivated variety).

Hybrid name registrations are based only on the first two and is only a “name”, not requiring any descriptive information. The type and form are ways to apply better description to the appearance, and the cultivar is used to delineate a specific plant and it’s asexually derived offspring, i.e., clones, keikies, and divisions.

[KC Kam]

Hi Ray,

Noted. Thank you for the sharing, i get it now.

[tmoney]

oh man, we had this very question in regards to another hybrid, and as e.s. pointed out it is still the same registered name. i find that really interesting, cause, especially in our case, the flower looks much different than the standard pics online. we attribute that mostly to one of the parents being a variation on the originally crossed species. so, i guess in the orchid world, if it doesn't get awards it won't get recognized! i suppose if the plant is outstanding enough on its own and gets awarded, then it could receive its own cultivar name. i sorta liken it to reciprocal crosses...should they be given the same cultivar name as the first award? they are not, afaik, so why should a new grex of the same old cross be named the same, especially if it has outstandingly different traits? but yeah, these are first world problems i suppose!!!

[Roberta]

There is no central registry of cultivar names, except for awarded plants. A cultivar name means "this particular plant" or one genetically identical (division or clone). For seed-grown plants, of course variation is to be expected, just like siblings with the same parents, they can look quite different. The grex is determined by the parents, and the reciprocal cross is the same grex. (doesn't matter which is pod parent and which is pollen parent, or for that matter which particular cultivars are used). A remake of a grex will likely be different depending on the characteristics of the parents. If outstanding, gets awarded, gets its own cultivar name and then it is in the "record books".

If you want a specific "look" than a clone should give you a predictable flower (though mutations do happen). Seed-grown plants will have all sorts of variation depending on the complexity of the ancestry, that's where the "new" cultivars come from. Then, a particularly good cultivar may get cloned, and carry the cultivar name of the original.

[KC Kam]

Nice. Thanks for the information

[Louis_W]

Originally Posted by tmoney

...reciprocal crosses...should they be given the same cultivar name as the first award?

Perhaps Robertas response already cleared this up but any seedling created from a cross, even if the parent is selfed, looses any variety names or award titles any of its parents received.

[Roberta]

Originally Posted by Louis_W

Perhaps Robertas response already cleared this up but any seedling created from a cross, even if the parent is selfed, looses any variety names or award titles any of its parents received.

Exactly. If it isn't genetically identical to the plant with the variety (cultivar) name (either by cloning or division) it doesn't get the cultivar name. (Even a selfing reshuffles genes, similar but not identical, the result is a different individual)