Hybrids Question... - Orchid Board

cb977 · #1 08-30-2006, 10:21 AM

Although I've been concentrating on collecting species, I do have a number of hybrids in the bunch.
Could somebody please explain the breakdown of hybrids for me? I've seen the phrases Primary hybrid, Secondary hybrid and there's one other that I can't remember...what are the characteristics of plants in any of these categories?
Thanks...

Tikva · #2 08-30-2006, 10:35 AM

You know who's good at that stuff? Piper / Julie from RVO... let me see if I can find the explination she wrote for RVO once....

Here..... it's a lot of techie stuff for me, but maybe this will help??

http://www.rv-orchidworks.com/orchid...ghlight=naming

littlefrog · #3 08-30-2006, 10:54 AM

A primary hybrid is one that is made between two species. I don't know exactly how you would define 'secondary hybrid'. I'm sure people use the term, but I'm also sure it would be a bit slippery to define.

In my mind, it is either a primary hybrid, or complex. Complex is anything that has more than three species in the background.

cneos · #4 08-30-2006, 12:27 PM

Terms with which I am familiar are natural, primary, near-primary and complex hybrids. A natural hybrid is a cross of the same genus and species; primary hybrid is a cross of two different species within the same genus; near-primary is a cross between a primary hybrid and another species in the same genus; complex is a cross of two hybrids. We use these definitions in show judging classification lists with success. Things get crazy when we get into intergeneric hybrids.

Tindomul · #5 08-30-2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cneos

Terms with which I am familiar are natural, primary, near-primary and complex hybrids. A natural hybrid is a cross of the same genus and species;

Hi,
How is that even a Hybrid?????? I don't understand. If you cross two plants of the same genus and species, then wouldn't you get just another of the same plant. Like to Humans making a baby human. Not a Hybrid.

littlefrog · #6 08-30-2006, 01:23 PM

A natural hybrid is a naturally occuring plant derived from two separate species. Paph. X Fanaticum, for example. The X indicates it is a natural hybrid (of... malipoense and micranthum, I believe). Without the X, we assume a man made hybrid, so Paph. Fanaticum is the man made version of something that you could find in the jungle.

Natural hybrids were often given latinized names. In fact, many were described as valid species, and only later moved to be natural hybrids. For purposes of AOS judging, natural hybrids are awarded as species (ie, you can get a CHM or CBR on them), if I recall correctly.

It doesn't have to be the same genus, actually. I'm sure there are some natural hybrids between laelia and cattleya, for example.

Tindomul · #7 08-30-2006, 03:12 PM

Oh, now I understand. Thanks Rob.

Mahon · #8 08-30-2006, 06:46 PM

When discussing Natural Hybrids, we treat them similar to species, as they occur in nature. So the binary name Paph. x Fanaticum is actually incorrect, as it would confuse one in thinking it is a cross with this hybrid, or it is just a hybrid (man-made). So the proper displayal is Paph. x fanaticum. The lowercase 'F' shows that this is similar to a specific epithet, but the 'x' shows that it is a hybrid, so it is a Natural Hybrid. Natural Hybrids are given latin names.

There are also naturally occuring Intrageneric Natural Hybrids, which are two different genera that are crossed by natural means. For the most part, most Natural Hybrids are Intergeneric, which is contained within a single genus.

As for Primary Hybrid, this is a cross of two species, regardless of genus. A Complex Hybrid is three or more species crossed together, regardless of genera. These are the most common hybrid terms used, besides the use of Generations.

Ray · #9 08-31-2006, 08:30 AM

Mahon, I'm guessing that it was just a typo, but Intergeneric refers to a hybrid between two different genera. Intrageneric would be within a single genus.

I have a further question/comment, as well: More than once it was stated that a complex hybrid is any that contains more than two species, and I think that definition isn't precise enough. What about (A x B) x A? Only two species, but not really a primary hybrid. Or better yet [(A x B) x A] x [(A x B) x B] - two species, but fairly complex.

Aren't we more correct to say that a primary is a hybrid in which two species were the parents?

littlefrog · #10 08-31-2006, 10:38 AM

I mistyped on the Paph. x fanaticum, good catch, Mahon.

Ray... I totally agree. (A x B) x A is not a primary hybrid. And my definition, therefore, sucked. I think your definition is better. Some examples would include:

Paph. Maudiae - callosum x lawrenceanum
Paph. Alma Gavaert - (callosum x lawrenceanum) x lawrenceanum
Paph. Holdenii - (callosum x lawrenceanum) x callosum

Now, you can't get any more complicated than the RHS naming system, so the last two are complex hybrids

, even though they are derived from only two species.