Hybrids Question...

[cb977]

Cool discussion we've got going here...

[Mahon]

Originally Posted by Ray

Mahon, I'm guessing that it was just a typo, but Intergeneric refers to a hybrid between two different genera. Intrageneric would be within a single genus.

I have a further question/comment, as well: More than once it was stated that a complex hybrid is any that contains more than two species, and I think that definition isn't precise enough. What about (A x B) x A? Only two species, but not really a primary hybrid. Or better yet [(A x B) x A] x [(A x B) x B] - two species, but fairly complex.

Aren't we more correct to say that a primary is a hybrid in which two species were the parents?

Ray, yes you were right, I don't know what I am thinking sometimes... Intrageneric is within the same genus, Intergeneric is the opposite... good clarification about the definition of Primary Hybrid, I never thought how generic the definition is, and you have a good set up for the hybrid. =)

-Pat

[Piper]

I'm just going to recap, because a lot of things have been missaid and then restated. While the information ends up being correct, the flow is confusing as hell!

Genus names are always capitalized, and species names are always small caps. The only exception is a natural hybrid, which is a cross between two species that occurs in nature. That's the only hybrid to get a small cap in its name. It's preceded by a small 'x' to show that it's a naturally occuring hybrid. For example: Cattleya x joaquiniana, which is the naturally occuring cross between C. bicolor x C. walkeriana.

Primary hybrids are crosses between two species. But since they don't occur in nature, their names are capitalized. They're almost always within a single genus. I can't think of an example between genera, but I'm sure there is one.

Everything else is a complex hybrid. It is common to see the term near-primary hybrid. While that doesn't have a specific meaning, it's generally used to describe a primary hyrid crossed with a species. The species may also be a parent of the primary hybrid, but not necessarily. Sort of like a first cousin once removed.

If two species are crossed, the name of the species doesn't change, but the cultivar or clonal name does. That would be the name that follows in single quotes. Such as Paph. rothschildianum 'Rex'.

When crossing the same species this is true for hybrids as well, but I'll use species to describe it, to keep things simple
you can create seedlings that are either sibs or selfs. A self crossing means the pollen comes from the plant on which you set the pod. For example, Paph. sanderianum 'Twister' x self.

Here's an important point with self and sib crosses: let's say we want to cross our beloved Phal. equestris 'Candor Violette' FCC/AOS. It's won the American Orchid Society's highest honor the FCC award, and we want seedlings from the little darling. So we make a Phal equestris 'Candor Violette' x self cross. While the seedlings retain the cultivar name of the parent, 'Candor Violette', they do not retain the FCC/AOS designation. Only clones or divisions of the awarded plant retain the award. They must be genetically identical, and seedlings are close, but not exactly the same. This mistake is often seen on tags of self crosses of awarded plants.

A sib crossing means we're working with the seedlings from an earlier cross. P1 is used to represent the original parents. Let's say we've already crossed our prized Phrag. besseae 'Eric the Red' FCC/AOS x 'Fox Valley' FCC/AOS. They would be known as the P1 generation, or parents. The seedlings we get from that cross are known as the F1 progeny or offspring. The first generation of seedlings. From these F1 seedlings, we may wish to further breed for specific traits. If we cross two of our F1 seedlings, we've made a sib cross. That is, between siblings from our original P1 cross.

The cross would be labled: Phrag. besseae ('Eric the Red' x 'Fox Valley') x sib. Note how the FCC/AOS labels drop off for the sib cross, just as they did in the F1 self cross above. The seedlings from our sib cross would be referred to as to as the F2 generation. Further sib crosses from among our F2 plants would give us an F3 generation, etc.

The F1 and F2 designations are often used by top breeders. They'll often represent the intermediate steps of a mult-generational breeding program.

There's more than anyone asked for! Ok, the end!

Julie

[Tindomul]

Thanks Julie!!!!
Great recap.

[cb977]

Great job, Julie
thank you...and thanks to everybody for their input.
I kept thinking...:I'm smart, I can figure this out"...only to realize...NO!
Thanks again

[Piper]

Thanks, Susanne. Don't worry - it's not intuitive! You only learn by asking.

For that matter, I have a couple of questions. What are the rules for naming a hybrid cross (aka a grex) and cultivars?

My understanding is that if a cross hasn't yet been registered, and you have a flowering plant of that cross, then you can name it. If you made the cross yourself, it's pretty straight forward. If you didn't, you have to show an effort to have located the original hybridizer to offer him or her the chance to name it. Is that correct?

I'm curious, because I just bought a Dend primary hybrid that's just bloomed and is an unnamed cross, and I know the seller didn't make it. I can only imagine the name has been applied for and the paperwork is in process over at the RHS.

As for cultivars, I believe you can give a cultivar name to an awarded plant. But non-awarded plants are also named for commercial purposes. What are the rules for naming a cultivar?

Julie

[Phantasm]

I agree with the vast majority of what you have summed up, but the last part about sib crosses has me a bit perplexed. When you have a sib cross of phrag bessae "Eric the Red" FCC/AOS x "Fox Valley" FCC/AOS, that is exactly what should be on the tag. Both of the parents have awards, and this helps to further identify the particular clone as highly worthy.
Virtually all nurseries will include award information on their tags.
All this does is tell you that both parents are highly awarded and that the cross has high potential.
The exhibitor can name any plant whether awarded or not. If it is awarded, then it has to have a clonal name.

[Oscarman]

Originally Posted by Phantasm

When you have a sib cross of phrag bessae "Eric the Red" FCC/AOS x "Fox Valley" FCC/AOS, that is exactly what should be on the tag. Both of the parents have awards, and this helps to further identify the particular clone as highly worthy.
Virtually all nurseries will include award information on their tags.
All this does is tell you that both parents are highly awarded and that the cross has high potential.

Great information from everyone.
I agree there is much information about an orchid cross that should be included on the tag; sadly, it is often missing or incorrect. Often this can be attributed to poor penmanship or negligence of proper spelling or record keeping.

[Ray]

I have to make some further clarifications to some of your restatements, Julie:

Originally Posted by Piper

Genus names are always capitalized, and species names are always small caps.

The specific name is lower case, not small caps.

Originally Posted by Piper

Primary hybrids are crosses between two species. But since they don't occur in nature, their names are capitalized.

Primary hybrids sure DO occur in nature! You used one as your example from the papragraph above.

Originally Posted by Piper

So we make a Phal equestris 'Candor Violette' x self cross. While the seedlings retain the cultivar name of the parent, 'Candor Violette', they do not retain the FCC/AOS designation.

The seedlings absolutely do not retain the cultivar name! While one may label them as "Phal equestris 'Candor Violette' FCC/AOS x self", each seedling is actually a new cultivar, which may be given it's own name.

I have a "naming conventions" page on my website - click here

[Ray]

By the way Rob, how does Paph. Almenii strike you? It's Holdenii x Alma Gavaert - still only two species:

[(callosum x lawrenceanum) x callosum] x [(callosum x lawrenceanum) x lawrenceanum]

Oh wait! It gets better! Almenii x Holdenii = Eric Meng
{[(callosum x lawrenceanum) x callosum] x [(callosum x lawrenceanum) x lawrenceanum]} x [(callosum x lawrenceanum) x callosum]