Light question (Phalaenopsis)

[tedro]

Hi,

Are (other than Sun) light sources, like my led GE Daylight bulb, considered "indirect" lighting?

If a plant calls for "indirect" light, how do you grow indoors with artificial lights? Is everything other than direct sunlight considered indirect?

My bulb puts out no heat and can be a matter of inches, or less, from leaf or flower, if desired.

[DirtyCoconuts]

If you think about light in terms of its wave length and intensity in terms of lumens as opposed to its source it is easier to break it down.

Your plant, mini phalaenopsis, does need much light at all. It could live comfortably in indoor light with no special accommodations.

If you are lucky enough to have good sunlight then you can put it away from the window but in the same room and it will be fine.

[Kruger]

Indirect light means not full sun exposure outside. So in a partially shaded area, in a very bright room with lots of reflective light, etc... You shouldn't have hard shadows the whole time.

Phalaenopsis needs about 2000fc, but you can give more if you have enough airflow and humidity, or you can give less but for longer duration. The leaves should be green to grassy green. If you grow cattleyas for example, they should have a pale green or yellow green foliage.


FYI, for my setup I use 8 2'ft T5 HO lights. I could go to 4'ft for better efficiency, but its what I have now without blocking windows. I just pay attention to my plants and make sure they are cool enough / don't get burned. Close to the lights, I can get ~7-8,000fc. Lower down I get about 1,500fc. I can get purple blushing on my brassavolas and nice coloring on my psychopsis so I think I have plenty. The pictures are autodimmed from the dumb smartphone. You don't need this setup, but just an example of lighting that works for me. I'll see if I can get a vanda to bloom with this.

If you are serious about orchids, get a light meter. If it is just a casual hobby (good luck ), see if your hand casts medium shadows on the leaves and if the leaves are not too large or too dark green. If so, you'll be fine.

[WaterWitchin]

I've seen pics of your phal by the window. It's just fine.

[tedro]

Originally Posted by DirtyCoconuts

If you think about light in terms of its wave length and intensity in terms of lumens as opposed to its source it is easier to break it down.

Your plant, mini phalaenopsis, does need much light at all. It could live comfortably in indoor light with no special accommodations.

If you are lucky enough to have good sunlight then you can put it away from the window but in the same room and it will be fine.

i do not have good sunlight. I live in a dark dank often quite cool tiny apartment. No way a flowering plant would survive without supplemental light in here.

I mostly wondering how far away my supplemental light actually needs to be the shape of my work and spike takes up a lot of volume if you will so I’m constantly turning the light around to balance where it strikes.

I have several LightMeter’s. The bulb claims to put out 1600 lumens, which it can be, but at various distances and of course the orchid with its spike hanging way out to the side is varying differences quite a bit.

The light meter I like the most it’s not even very accurate it’s just for plants. Most of the time it reads medium light.

My underlying question is this if this light is considered direct and it should probably be farther away and indeed you probably need more bulbs to put around the plant.

Not that I’m going to do that just technically speaking unless you want to keep moving the lamp around or unless you don’t care that it strikes one side only all the time which I’m sure it would be fine as well

---------- Post added at 09:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:07 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Kruger

Indirect light means not full sun exposure outside. So in a partially shaded area, in a very bright room with lots of reflective light, etc... You shouldn't have hard shadows the whole time.

Phalaenopsis needs about 2000fc, but you can give more if you have enough airflow and humidity, or you can give less but for longer duration. The leaves should be green to grassy green. If you grow cattleyas for example, they should have a pale green or yellow green foliage.


FYI, for my setup I use 8 2'ft T5 HO lights. I could go to 4'ft for better efficiency, but its what I have now without blocking windows. I just pay attention to my plants and make sure they are cool enough / don't get burned. Close to the lights, I can get ~7-8,000fc. Lower down I get about 1,500fc. I can get purple blushing on my brassavolas and nice coloring on my psychopsis so I think I have plenty. The pictures are autodimmed from the dumb smartphone. You don't need this setup, but just an example of lighting that works for me. I'll see if I can get a vanda to bloom with this.

If you are serious about orchids, get a light meter. If it is just a casual hobby (good luck ), see if your hand casts medium shadows on the leaves and if the leaves are not too large or too dark green. If so, you'll be fine.

so, seems to me following “instructions” common to many plants: “indirect light only” plants. It refers only to the natural direct sun or could it also mean a very bright (powerful) bulb. for example, If I had 2 1,000 watt MH and SH 1,000 watt, 3 feet over the moth orchid... is that considered indirect, still?
At what level of lumens does it cross into “direct” territory?

Because while my current little GE bulb isn’t all that, it is nevertheless pointing directly at the leaves.

Not that I want to do anything (different), I’m looking to learn a thing.

[DirtyCoconuts]

For example.
I have, in my bathroom, a mini phal, just like yours, in bloom. It is in the corner three feet from the window and five feet from the light which is rarely on. This is a privacy glazed, East facing, window with a significant eave. Point is, they don’t need much light at all. Other orchids, it’s a big deal, phals....not so much. They are naturally growing on the lower branches of huge trees with massive over cover.

[tedro]

Honestly, I think I'm fundamentally incorrect: when plants say "indirect" or "direct" they mean SUN LIGHT.

so, how close my artificial light is placed simply depends upon its capability vs the plant's needs.

i asked the grocery store manager if the lights ever go out. he said for about 3 hrs, but with some emergency lighting still in. what i do not know is: if all those orchids were left to live in the grocery, would they thrive. --i do not know the rate of turnover in the store. same for a nearby nursery.

i'm interested in "thrive" normally, not a catatonic slow death.

i used to farm indoors, i've had very powerful system, even ones that move! but that was decades ago and plants that love direct sun. thus, my curiosity!

i also believe that this orchid would not have done well had i not added a 1600 lumen bulb. At first I only extended the "day" with it; I switch a while back to adding it to the normal day (by the heavily shaded inside lanai sliding door).

(foi: Direct sunlight has a luminous efficacy of about 93 lumens per watt of radiant flux. Multiplying the figure of 1050 watts per square metre by 93 lumens per watt indicates that bright sunlight provides an illuminance of approximately 98 000 lux (lumens per square meter) on a perpendicular surface at sea level. And,
Many people will attempt to do the LED & 1000 watt metal halide lumens comparison. How many lumen do MH lamps produce? According to the research, the luminous efficiency is about 60 to 110 lm/watt; therefore, a 1000 watt metal halide produces at least 60,000 lumens, or at most 110,000 lumens.)

[Ray]

“Burning” is all about photon flux - too much from any light source can burn leaves.

Every plant has a range of “photon volume” (aka “daily light integral” or DLI) it needs to do best. That can be guesstimated by intensity x time. If you read a culture guide and get a recommendation of “so many“ foot candles, if switching to artificial light, the plant will need a continual level of light at about half that. (READ THIS).

If you don’t have a light meter, the best you can do is try the “shadow” method: hold your hand about a foot above the plant, between it and the light source. Move the light closer or farther until you can barely discern a shadow on the plant. That’s a reasonable level for a phal. Be observant - if the plant starts looking really dark green after several weeks, move the lamp a little closer.

[tedro]

Originally Posted by Ray

“Burning” is all about photon flux - too much from any light source can burn leaves.

Every plant has a range of “photon volume” (aka “daily light integral” or DLI) it needs to do best. That can be guesstimated by intensity x time. If you read a culture guide and get a recommendation of “so many“ foot candles, if switching to artificial light, the plant will need a continual level of light at about half that. (READ THIS).

If you don’t have a light meter, the best you can do is try the “shadow” method: hold your hand about a foot above the plant, between it and the light source. Move the light closer or farther until you can barely discern a shadow on the plant. That’s a reasonable level for a phal. Be observant - if the plant starts looking really dark green after several weeks, move the lamp a little closer.

Thank you! I did read the article.

I am curious about your use of the word “continual,” 24x7 is probably not what that refers to?

Here’s my deal/my question-to-self when i read the moth orchid tag that said “indirect” and whatever (can’t remember) else it said that indicated that possibly I could have a beautiful FLOWERING plant in my dark and at times dank apartment.
so I thought I’d give it a try. Not willing to test the limits of low light on the plant I decided to see what I could do for it to thrive and boy is it thriving. Or at least seems to be. however, this is high maintenance. And for me it would have to be very low maintenance.
For example the location of this plant the only location I really have for it requires me to more or less put it to bed and wake up each day because I have to open and close my lanai curtain every day and morning. And that requires me to move a little supplemental lamp around and move the plant around several times a day.
I could probably get a better lamp with timer of course, and relocated to a table more inside the apartment. But that’s not the lamp fixture I have and the table is not exactly suited — Maybe it could be.

But for now I just want to see what it does and is doing quite well whether I can keep this up or will want to or relocate at the lower end to see how it does is all another question.

But that’s kind of why am asking all these questions plus it’s very interesting.

I may be overdoing it a bit I should probably cut my lamp back to 13 hours instead of 14.

Thank you very much!!!maybe it could be.

But for now I just want to see what it does and is doing quite well whether I can keep this up or will want to or relocate at the lower ends to see how it does is all another question.

But that’s kind of why am asking all these questions plus it’s very interesting.

I may be overdoing it a bit I should probably cut my lamp back to 13 hours instead of 14; and, I’m beginning to move my lamp back a little not so close. The light meter so I have I have about three of them as apps on my phone, Or kind of not consistent and all over the place. I find a little app called Plant Light, to be the most useful even though it’s probably pretty much the same as the shadow method or about as accurate. But it seems that with my little lamp in the daytime I’m probably getting “medium” light.

attached meter image (‘Korona’ ios app).
also found this article: MechaTronix - Typical PPFD and DLI values per crop
I’ve also seen this: Suggested maximum light intensities for some common orchid genera are 1,500 foot-candles for Phalaenopsis and Paphiopedilum, 2,500 foot-candles for Miltoniopsis and Zygopetalum, 3,000 foot-candles for Cattleya, and 5,000 foot-candles for Brassia, Cymbidium, Degarmoara, Dendrobium and Oncidium.

and this (not a member, just looking for DLI stuff — these are only my quickest google search results): How much PAR are your orchids getting? | Slippertalk Orchid Forum- The best slipper orchid forum for paph, phrag and other lady slipper orchid discussion!

If any of that is incorrect, please comment!

Thank you very much!!!

ps. i may well be overdoing it! which would be good, to me. Next is to back off and see what happens. Or get another phal and see if it does anything more than survive at the lowest end. probably not going to do that!

[Roberta]

Just a thought... remember that orchids teach patience because they grow very slowly... while a burned spot can develop fast, most of the things that one does for (or to) an orchid won't give you feedback for a long time... months usually, for blooming more like a year or year-plus. So don't draw any conclusions based on a few weeks. (You may do things and see things happen but not necessarily cause-and-effect.) Do what seems to make sense, then observe.