Fertilizer inquiry

[Ocelaris]

I'll bite, The hot item that a lot of people are using is the MSU formula, which Ray sells, although respectfully he doesn't promote it at every turn which is nice.

Here's a story.

A salesman goes up to a lady and sells her some magic fertilizer; the directions say to apply it every day. She does, her plants grow spectacularly. One day she peels off the label and notices that she's been just watering her plants with... just water. Yup, nothing but water. Furious she sues the salesman. "But your plants have done fabulous!" Says the judge as he throws out the case. The moral of this story, is that it's not necessarily WHAT you put into your plants, as much that you DO put anything into them. Paying attention often is worth more than any fertilizer. It's not a magic bullet, but merely a foundation.

I've been using Ray's MSU fertilizer for 6 months, and it works. Others have used it much longer. I do have a LOT of roots, my Vandas phenomenally so... I can't say I've been without flowers on any plant yet, but in a year's time I'll know, but I seriously doubt I'm short on phosphorous as I've flowered a few vandas now, and most of my others are growing well, if not flowering yet.


Basically it's a 13/3/15 NPK ratio + trace elements, and you can buy 2 formulas which are balanced for your water; RO or well water. I don't think he makes a city water, since it varies so great from city to city... but if you have relatively soft water to start with, you should be all right with the well water formula which I believe has NO buffering capabilities, so it relies on your city's water in order to maintain pH. Maybe Ray can comment on that, as I'm thinking of switching from RO formula to well water, as I have such soft water here in NYC, 30-40ppm EC, which I would think would be similar to well water?

Best way is RO + RO formula... RO = Reverse Osmosis water... basically no minerals at all... the important part is getting regular nutrients to the plant.

There are urban legends in the plant world that phosphorous and red light stimulate flowering, fruiting etc... which are more or less false. In the same sense, they attribute nitrogen and blue light to vegetative growth; which is also false. Now neither of these are 100% false, but it makes an easy sale, and people grab that concept and run with it. There are some reasons which people distort to make the above mentioned urban legends sound plausible, but if you see anyone relying on any one truth, it's false.

Ray's formula is great, he contributes as you've seen, and supporting him supports a good cause, as I see it. On the other hand, just about any balanced fertilizer will do, just make sure that it is relatively generic with trace elements, not some whacky 0/5/90 or 3/50/3 formula...

[Ray]

First of all, the fertilizers are not "my" formulas. I buy, repackage, and resell the Greencare products - the ones developed specifically for the MSU study, not knock-offs. The liquids I do make myself - by making concentrated solutions of the Greencare powders.

Secondly, there are two formulas, arbitrarily named for "RO" and "Well Water", but in actuality, the idea is that the first is for any pure water supply (RO, rain, distilled, DI, melted snow, or if you happen to live there, Manhattan tap), that is, water containing no appreciable dissolved minerals, and the other is for water supplies that do, which is pretty much every other source. (Ocelaris, stick with the RO formula.)

Now, let me go on a bit about fertilizers in general: There are "good ones" and "bad ones". Good ones have a decent balance of all major, minor, and trace elements. Bad ones have too much nitrogen, or just the major elements, and not much else. If the good ones have an excess of P or K, it's mostly just wasted, pushing them a bit toward the "bad" category in my mind, but not making them bad for your plants.

There is no such thing as a "bloom booster". The best flowers come from the healthiest plants, and that means excellent overall culture including an appropriate diet. There is a bit of psychology in this, though.

When the "MSU Fertilizers" hit the scene, they were touted as being close to "magical" in their effect. I have seen the same reaction to other brands and formulations, as well. In reality, what typically happens is that an amateur grower, upon getting the "magic" product, uses it in a thoughtful, controlled manner, giving the plant a decent diet, often accompanied by better attention to the other cultural conditions, cleanliness, fresh medium, etc., when they had been entirely too lackadaisical (OK - lazy and inattentive) about them in the past. They fail to realize that it's not the fertilizer, per se, that improves the plants, it's the fact that they're now getting some regularly and seeing better overall care, to boot! (I'd put money down on them falling back to their old ways after a while....)

Lastly, I'll comment on the "product promotion" comment, just so folks understand where I'm coming from:

First Rays is a WAY overgrown hobby (if it keeps growing at the rate it has been, soon I'll have more in sales than I make at my "real" job). I buy stuff I want/need (that's a vary narrow distinction, especially when it comes to plants), doing so in wholesale quantities so I can get the reduced pricing. I keep/use what I want, and resell the rest. What that means is that if I sell it, I have- or do use it, hence my recommendations. Do I sell stuff I don't use? Yeah, but I once did use it, and I'm not stupid enough to stop selling a product that is in demand. You will not see me promote something I have not used myself.

[TheNewGuy]

I really appreciate the info!!!!! It makes me happy knowing that there is a method behind the madness!!! Thank you once more for your input and I will be sure to get on the ball with some decent fertilizer.

[gmdiaz]

I am super happy with using Ray's MSU and RO water. . .you'll be happy with this product!!!! But get it from Ray.

P.S. Might as well also order Ray's KLN!

Awesome combo.

[Ocelaris]

I don't think Ray was implying that high nitrogen fertilizer makes the plants NOT bloom, this is a misleading statement. He was just saying that UREA based nitrogen fertilizers are unusable by orchids because it must be broken down into ammoniacal nitrogen before it is usable by plants, and since orchids have usually very limited soil (soil = nitrifying bacteria which breaks down urea into ammonia), they don't do well with urea... and we can presume that typical "high nitrogen" fertilizers use cheap UREA which gives "high nitrogen" a bad name. Indeed there is no such thing as "preventing blooming" as much as an unhealthy plant will not bloom. You can't encourage or discourage blooming or vegetative growth, as much as you can discourage blooming by not providing enough vegetative mass... healthier plant = blooms.

What the MSU fertilizer plant is saying, is that soluble Nitrogen is the limiting factor, so high nitrogen that IS available directly to plants is desirable, and that only once the nitrogen is sufficient, then potassium, and lastly phosphates will be used.

I would agree that ANY fertilizer is sufficient as long as it's basically complete, and used in a reasonable manner. i.e. not too strong and used regularly. Plants will only take what they need, if you provide it all, they'll do with it what they want. It's not to say all fertilizers are created equal, just that what you feed them isn't probably as important as that you DO feed them regularly...

EdinAZ, do you have any more pictures of your grow room? It looks like a nice setup with grill for the floor, to allow water to drain?

[Ocelaris]

whoops! was tired, should've read twice...

[Ray]

Actually, Ocelaris, that was exactly the point. It has been shown time and again that a steady diet of high-nitrogen fertilizers will reduce-, if not stop flowering altogether. I don't know if the source makes any difference, but as urea has to be broken down through nitrification to be used by the plants, I suppose a high-urea formula is actually a low-nitrogen formula, as far as orchid growing is concerned.