Is Brassavola Nodosa 'Susan Fuchs' a 4N Tetraploid? - Orchid Board

Photo Synthesis · #1 05-29-2018, 10:54 PM

Hello, everyone! I just recently purchased and mounted a Brassavola nodosa 'Susan Fuchs' FCC/AOS, and I was just a little curious about its genetics. Some online sources mention that it is a 4N tetraploid, while others don't seem to mention that it is at all. (Although, they don't seem to deny it, either...) They're still listed as a 'Susan Fuchs' cultivar. So I was just curious as to whether or not these are both one and the same. Or would a 4N be genetically different? I guess what I'm trying to find out is if the 'Susan Fuchs' a 4N tetraploid?
I don't care either way, this is still one of my favorite orchids of all time. Someone gave me a clipping of one many years ago, with only two pseudobulbs/leaves on it, and it still bloomed for me anyways. After it opened up, and as soon as the evening sun set, my whole backyard was filled with the wonderful fragrance from those two little blooms. I instantly fell in love with the "Queen of the Night."
That little clipping was tough, but it never really amounted to anything. Fast forward to now, and my new orchid is huge by comparison. The leaves are definitely much larger, and I can only imagine what its flowers will look like. Don't even get me started on the fragrance. I can't hardly wait for my plant to establish itself and really take off. Definitely worth it.
I planned ahead and bought a couple large pieces of cork bark to mount some orchids to late last year. Then, finally, I got to work on it the other day and eventually got it mounted. I think it turned out much better than I anticipated, and with more than plenty of room for it to grow.
Anyways, back to my question, if anybody can elaborate on this for me, I would definitely welcome it. Thanks.

orchidsarefun · #2 05-30-2018, 03:19 PM

A4N plant can arise naturally or through genetic chemical modification of protocorms. Generally speaking the blooms are supposed to be bigger as well as the plants themselves. If you notice a difference,
then yours is probably a 4N.
However there can be downsides- as in poor growth habit, susceptibility to infection and even loss/partial loss of fragrance. These are usually attributed to the plants that are chemically altered or even to those that have been mericloned for multiple generations.

Photo Synthesis · #3 05-30-2018, 05:24 PM

Yeah, I know what differences that a 4N orchid can have. I was just curious as to whether or not this particular cultivar itself was considered a 4N orchid. In other words, is there both a 'Susan Fuchs' & a 'Susan Fuchs'4N? Or is every B. nodosa 'Susan Fuchs' cultivar out there already considered a 4N tetraploid? If that makes any sense.
From my own observations, this new orchid of mine is much larger in comparison to the one I had previously. The leaves on it seem almost twice as big. I just wasn't sure if these traits were associated with it being bred this way, or if these traits come from it having 4N genetics. Perhaps both?
Whatever the case may be, with its FCC/AOS award status, I already know that I'll love this cultivar for many years to come. My previous regular B. nodosa impressed me with its two tiny little blooms. I was outside doing some yard work one evening and their fragrance hit me from the other side of my backyard. It took me a minute to figure out where this delightful smell was coming from. That cutting also oozed out this clear nectar that these tiny little ants craved. No matter how high off of the ground I kept this plant, those little ants would stop at nothing to eventually track it down. They only wanted the nectar and didn't bother anything else, so just let them have it. One of those two blooms ended up getting fertilized and formed a seed pod. But I had no means to germinate and flask the seeds myself, so I just let it go, as difficult as it was to do.
I guess I'll contact the seller and see if they can answer my question. Not sure why I didn't think of that to begin with. I was so impressed with the quality of their orchids that I'm already planning my next order.

estación seca · #4 05-31-2018, 01:09 AM

I don't know. I see references to this name with both 4N and no 4N listed. Can you track down the information on the FCC award?

Photo Synthesis · #5 05-31-2018, 04:22 AM

Well, the American Orchid Society has their 'Orchids Plus' software, which gives you full access to over 80 years of orchid awards. But I don't know if I'm ready to shell out $58.50 just to satisfy my curiosity. I may download and install it eventually, but not anytime soon.
I do plan on contacting the place I bought it from and asking them if they know more about it, the next time I order from them. Until then, I guess I'll just have to speculate. 🤔

Ray · #6 05-31-2018, 07:31 AM

That cultivar received its FCC 45 years ago, and the award info, as presented in Orchid Wiz, says nothing about the ploidy. How could it? This is definitely a case of not being able to tell a book by its cover, and judges sitting around that table can only see that.

orchidsarefun · #7 05-31-2018, 11:47 AM

Ploidy is really only of interest to hybridisers and orchid sellers. The sellers know that they can charge more $ to buyers by attaching 4N to the clonal name. I've seen 2N and 4N cattleya species side by side and the difference is amazing - so I'm already preprogrammed to prefer 4N plants. Judges always refer to past award photos/plant stats when judging a plant and I've heard on numerous occasions comments like "this must be a 4N". However they do not know for sure...

Photo Synthesis · #8 05-31-2018, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

Ploidy is really only of interest to hybridisers and orchid sellers. The sellers know that they can charge more $ to buyers by attaching 4N to the clonal name. I've seen 2N and 4N cattleya species side by side and the difference is amazing - so I'm already preprogrammed to prefer 4N plants. Judges always refer to past award photos/plant stats when judging a plant and I've heard on numerous occasions comments like "this must be a 4N". However they do not know for sure...

Yeah, I came across one online vendor that mentioned that their B. nodosa 'Susan Fuchs' was a 4N orchid, and they were charging an arm and a leg for it. I shopped around and found the same cultivar being sold elsewhere for more reasonable prices. That's what sparked my curiosity.

Fairorchids · #9 06-05-2018, 08:19 AM

As far as I know, ploidy is not on the AOS judges horizon. Usually, if you have 2N & 4N plants side by side for comparison, the difference is easy to see in the stigma/anther structures, but when you only have one plant in front of you it takes a very trained eye to make the distinction.

Price differences from different sellers is not a reliable indicator either. It may reflect a desire for a higher return, or that they paid more at their wholesale source.

Many years ago, Waldor Orchids acquired a bunch of meristems of C Caudebec 'Carmela' HCC/AOS. This batch was from the 2nd or 3rd production, and contained about 10% spontaneous 4N mutations. They selected one of the best, and identified it with the clonal name 'Linwood', which subsequently received an AM/AOS. They then meristem propagated 'Linwood'.

A couple of years I bloomed both at the same time. Aside from differences in flower size, notice the width of the stigma.

Ben_in_North_FLA · #10 07-26-2018, 08:35 AM

your answer may come by speaking with growers who actually breed nodosa as a species, whether you get the truth and not whatever version will increase their sales may be a different story.
I would speak with H&R (Roy, in Hawaii), Ben Oliveros of Gines orchids Hawaii and Claude Hamilton of Hamlyn orchids in Jamaica to start off with.
I have spoken to all and found them to be open and candid and generous wiith iinformation.