Experimenting with Mycorrhiza

[Optimist]

I am going to add some mycorrhiza spores to a few of my plants to see if that gets roots going stronger. For a while now, I have considered that the way "we" have been taught to re-pot, using videos, and explanations on line and in books, is actually the reverse of the experience of a "healthy" plant in a natural situation.

From anecdotes I have read over the last few years that I have belonged to this board, re-potting is a growth slowing , shock inducing situation for the plant, and sets it back. The closest analogy seems to be that the plant is thrown from a tree by a wind, and then left to fend for itself on the ground.

And then, there is the root clipping which would never happen in nature either. The roots of an orchid go through a life-cycle, and at the end of it become a "nest" to attract floating particles of organic material that could serve as fertilizer.

In a way, I wonder if it is because the roots are clipped off, or the potting soil has not broken down because of the action of decomposition. I also have considered the population of floating spores available to the plant, thus the interest in the micorrhyzia. These are basically mushroom/fungus spores.

If possible, some initial comments by people interested in this subject would be awesome.

[MrHappyRotter]

This has been studied before (both in scientific, professional, and amateur/hobbyist contexts) and the general consensus is that most of the commercially available mycorrhiza are useless for most orchids. Reasons / conjectures are typically presented as...

1) These plants (orchids & epiphytes) often form relationships with only a limited number of species of fungus/bacteria.
2) The species of fungus that do form symbiotic relationships with orchids are not commonly cultured, and some are impossible to culture commercially.
3) Mycorrhizal mixes are usually formulated for terrestrial plants, meant for plants grown in dirt or potting soil. Fungus and bacteria are just like plants, they need specific conditions (moisture, temperature, nutrient levels, media, etc) to grow.
4) Most orchid mixes / mounts don't provide the correct environment for commercial mycorrhiza to get established.
5) Even in cases where the mycorrhiza establish and are breaking down organic materials in the orchid pot (providing "food" for the orchid), the amounts usually pale in comparison to the amount of nutrients we provide in the form of fertilizer.

That's not to say you can't find fungal/bacterial mixes formulated for epiphytic plants. I'm pretty sure Ray is pitching one such product, though the intended benefits are less about roots and nutrition, and seemingly more about disease prevention.

This is not to discourage you from using any of these products. I don't believe they'd be harmful to your plants, and it's not completely impossible that your plant(s) would see some benefit, or at least you might get some placebo effect.

[Optimist]

I did know about the very limited kind of orchid mycorrhizae. I am also trying this with terrestrial orchids. A spathoglottis, for instance. I will actually look at what Ray has.

[Ray]

I was lucky enough to be asked to retail the Inocucor Garden Solution product, and it is labeled and marketed as a "Plant Probiotic" - something to "beef up" the plants to help avoid diseases, but I believe that's primarily as that categorizes it as a "plant and soil amendment", which is probably the easiest kind of treatment to register.

That said, it also helps cure fungal and bacterial diseases, stimulates plant growth, and does free up some nutrients in the substrate.

"Mycorrhizae" are merely parts of the fungus that form affiliations with roots. Some (ectomycorrhize) exist outside of the plants, and can form HUGE networks that can share nutrients, while others actually penetrate the plant (endomycorrhizae) and can share nutrients and other chemicals with the plant. It is the latter type that penetrate orchid seed in nature, providing the sugars needed for germination.

[stonedragonfarms]

I have used mycorrhiza in my mixes for terrestrial & semi terrestrials (cymbidium) orchids; I don't know that I have seen any noticeable differences with those plants that I've potted on without it. I have seen great vigor when using it with epiphytic cacti though, they seem to push much more robust growths and have a stouter root system; I wonder if their root system is able to make better use of the nutrients which are made available my the mycorrhiza than the roots of orchids. Just my 2¢,
Adam

[Optimist]

Originally Posted by stonedragonfarms

I have used mycorrhiza in my mixes for terrestrial & semi terrestrials (cymbidium) orchids; I don't know that I have seen any noticeable differences with those plants that I've potted on without it. I have seen great vigor when using it with epiphytic cacti though, they seem to push much more robust growths and have a stouter root system; I wonder if their root system is able to make better use of the nutrients which are made available my the mycorrhiza than the roots of orchids. Just my 2¢,
Adam

I used it on a paph, and in 2 days I am seeing more activity than I have seen in the last 4 months. I think it did trigger something. I just put it on top and then sort of dug it in. It is way too early to tell. To do a proper experiment I would need a bunch of other plants which I do not have (double blind). I can say that various mushroom spores are always floating through the air and these orchids can grasp on to them and well, why not? I will try them on my few epiphytic cactii. I also have a few Hoyas.

---------- Post added at 05:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:35 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Ray

"Mycorrhizae" are merely parts of the fungus that form affiliations with roots. Some (endomycorrhize) exist outside of the plants, and can form HUGE networks that can share nutrients, while others actually penetrate the plant (ectomycorrhizae) and can share nutrients and other chemicals with the plant. It is the latter type that penetrate orchid seed in nature, providing the sugars needed for germination.

Yes Ray, I have seen that too. Orchid roots need certain ectomycorrhizae. Now, what I wonder is if all these spores are generally floating around. Like Nitorsomonas, Nitrobacters, can they be "encouraged" at all? For my part, Ray, I find the more orchids I have, the better all the orchids do. Me? Or crazy little floating bugs?

[Ray]

Please note that I had my "endo" and "ecto" accidentally reversed in my reply above. I fixed that, but the quote doesn't change...

[Guido]

Originally Posted by Optimist

I am going to add some mycorrhiza spores to a few of my plants to see if that gets roots going stronger.

Your intention is to get "stronger roots" then why not go directly to the hormone avenue?
The scientist have done all the research work for you.
I am not talking about the miracle potions being sold to the public by the merchants.
I am talking about the chemical sold by the well known labs. The agricultural sector uses them on crops.
You will need to do some research for the protocol and buy some wares but at the end you have knowledge and you had fun. No amount of mycorrhizae spores will beat the hormone compound. I hope I was of help. Guido

---------- Post added at 08:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:43 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Optimist

From anecdotes I have read over the last few years that I have belonged to this board, re-potting is a growth slowing , shock inducing situation for the plant, and sets it back. The closest analogy seems to be that the plant is thrown from a tree by a wind, and then left to fend for itself on the ground.

And then, there is the root clipping which would never happen in nature either. The roots of an orchid go through a life-cycle, and at the end of it become a "nest" to attract floating particles of organic material that could serve as fertilizer.

Reading these paragraphs leave me with the impression that cultivating an orchid is bad for the plant.
Re-potting an orchid is necessary if the roots are bound, the media is old, the media is not agreeable or due to an infestation.
The momentary slowing in the growth of the plant when repotted is out-weighted by the rebound afterwards. There are no excuses for not re-potting an orchid when it needs it. Acquiring an orchid comes with the responsibility of caring & doing your outmost for it.
Re-potting goes bad when the person doing it means well but lacks knowledge. I never leave my repotted orchids to fend for themselves, to the contrary, that is the time when I baby them the most.
In nature you do not have root clipping per se but what about insects, animals, birds and diseases that eat or affect the roots. A wild plant is always of lower quality than a cultivar and to prove my point just tell me when was the last time you saw a wild orchid with FCC qualities. Hope this posting will help you see the good in cultivation and by no means was I trying to be hard on you. Guido

[Bre_tallen]

does anyone have peer reviewed research on this? Mycorrhizae facilitate inter-specific and intra-specific carbon sharing in some plants and are of great interest to the mycologists and bontanists

[Optimist]

Originally Posted by Bre_tallen

does anyone have peer reviewed research on this? Mycorrhizae facilitate inter-specific and intra-specific carbon sharing in some plants and are of great interest to the mycologists and bontanists

I read some of the on-line papers, but I am not a biologist, so the vocabulary and systems are a little higher level than I can get.

I have am using mycorrhizae in tomato plants. I did get some root hormone. I also do feel that my main impetus to this conversation is the symbiotic relationship between swamp hickory and "ghost" orchids. There is some mycorrhizae involved in the orchid's choice of tree, and also whether the orchid thrives on that tree. Now, that is about as brainy as I can get over the matter. If you want papers on this, there is a small amount written on the web, but as I am not a scientist, I do not know, or have peer reviewed articles. I have been interested in CAM plants and carbon fixation for a while, but it is as an amature hobbiest. I would suggest the biology department of a local college for papers of this kind.