A Different Way To Protect The Ghost Orchid

[orchidsarefun]

epiphyte78 - thanks for referring to this project
Fairchild Tropical Botanic Garden > Science & Conservation > The Million Orchid Project
It appears that there are a number of threatened species in Florida and at least this group is doing something tangible about the situation. I don't know if you have mentioned your proposal/s to them, but that would be a good place to start if you want buy-in of any sort. They would ( presumably ) have the qualified 'scientists' to rationally debate your points ? Better than the anonymous internet ? They may already be doing something with the Ghost Orchid ? If they want a Ghost Orchid propagator, then I have a contact. I don't know if propagating from a 'wild' pod or using one produced by an orchid enthusiast and then releasing seedlings into the wild would add to the gene pool, or not.........maybe increase resistance to sowly-changing habitat ? I don't know, don't claim to know - but its an idea. Not an OMG he is crazy statement to parse.
I asked you to respond to some of the suggestions/issues/concerns raised - and that only led to more parsing of your responses and more criticism. Maybe you should take this offline if you are serious because its evident no matter what you say certain people have already made their judgement/s.
Finally - everyone should look up the definition of a bigot and the definition of crazy, compare and contrast - and come to their own conclusions about the behaviour displayed on this thread.

and this is the quote that I had in the back of the mind that I suddenly remembered - in the context of this thread :
The lady doth protest too much, methinks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

---------- Post added at 01:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 AM ----------

apologies for droning on, but epiphyte's analogy of the hummingbird in California is actually appropriate. It took me a while to twig, but better late than never ?
It also relates to my personal experience in IL. I photographed a hummingbird ( same type ) that has appeared in my garden for the last 2 years and had asked an 'expert' what type of hummingbird it was. She didn't know, but stated that it wasn't a native hummingbird. I certainly grow non-native plants in my garden that probably attracted them.
Looking at the bigger picture then, with this context in mind
- certain species of hummingbird - yep pollinators too - are excellent examples of a species that appear co-dependent on the presence of non-native food sources?
- is this a good thing or a bad thing for the 'scientists' ?
- do we advocate for the removal of non-native food sources because, well .........just because. The co-dependent hummingbirds then disappear.
- do we say it is what it is - but then advocate for the removal of non-native hummingbirds in pristine preserves, because their presence would indicate, probably, non-native food sources ?
- if the Ghost hybrid IS introduced - and AGAIN, I am not advocating for that - or maybe after a decades-long study that reaches that conclusion - and attracts pollinators that wouldn't normally be there - wouldn't that be increasing biodiversity in the strict scientific definition ?
Epiphyte - I stand by my previous comment regarding taking this offline, but appreciate you raising this issue as it certainly has made me think.

[Subrosa]

I am proud to be bigoted against the introduction of non native species and any hybrids being introduced into wild ecosystems. Thanks for the compliment! I'll have to owe you one for now.

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by Subrosa

I am proud to be bigoted against the introduction of non native species and any hybrids being introduced into wild ecosystems. Thanks for the compliment! I'll have to owe you one for now.

well as payback, please don't come to IL and implement your solution against my non-native hummingbird. I am sure it goes through a couple of wild ecosystems to get to my garden.

[Subrosa]

Fyi folks, hummingbirds are migratory. They really aren't native to anywhere. They are commonly found in certain regions during certain times of the year. The nature of long migrations lends itself to the participating species popping up in areas they may not be commonly seen in.

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by Subrosa

Fyi folks, hummingbirds are migratory. They really aren't native to anywhere. They are commonly found in certain regions during certain times of the year. The nature of long migrations lends itself to the participating species popping up in areas they may not be commonly seen in.

Hummingbirds breed somewhere ? At the moment its only the ruby-throated hummingbird - thats been documented in IL.
Illinois Hummingbirds -
Other examples , some protected some unregulated.
Ferrets - Established Species of Non-native Mammals in California - California Department of Fish and Wildlife

The problem with making general statements is that they are easily discounted.


A simple search reveals more data
Species by State/Province

[epiphyte78]

orchidsarefun, I haven't connected with either the Fairchild Botanic Garden or Selby Botanical Garden...yet. It's kind of hard to tell from their website but Selby is the premier institute for epiphyte research. Well, at least they used to be.

I definitely plan on contacting them but herclivation isn't the only topic that I'd like to share with them and get their thoughts on. I'd prefer to share the topics all at once, given that they are all closely related, but I still need to do a bit more work on the other topics. And I only have so much time.

Regarding offline vs online. I'm not at all bothered by less than constructive comments. I'd love it if everybody was as thoughtful and open-minded as yourself but that's just not how it happens sometimes. Plus, if nothing else, an unconstructive comment bumps the thread and exposes it to more people. My only concern is if unconstructive comments result in the thread being locked. It's the equivalent of throwing the baby out with the bath water. It doesn't just block unconstructive comments...it also blocks constructive comments.

If this thread had been locked after the first unconstructive comment...then we wouldn't be able to benefit from all the subsequent constructive comments. My preference is for the moderator to simply block unconstructive individuals from the thread rather than block everybody from the thread. To WhiteRabbit's credit, I think that a previous moderator, not going to mention any names, would have locked this thread long ago.

I posted a link to my blog entry on facebook and received the following comment...

The paper you cite here about multiple hybridizations and introgressions in the Epidendrums is a natural phenomena occuring in species that have low postmating isolation so in essence natural hybrids and introgressions whereas what you propose is artifical manmade hybrid, these are two completely different things. A better idea would be to cross pollinate D. lindenii plants from different areas, collect the seeds, micropropagate the seedlings and reintroduce them to all the natural habitats and let natural selection weed out the less fit less adaptive individuals with the weaker alles, this way you will exploit the natural variation within the species, than introducing artifically a gene pool from another species. - Amey Bhide

As an aside...I'm always a bit hesistant commenting on facebook because I'm never sure if my non-plant friends are going to be bombarred with plant related notifications as a result of my plant related activity. I'm probably sure I could tweak my settings but it's not worth the effort to figure out.

Bhide's comment is interesting because clearly he acknowledges that some variation is good...but unfortunately, he doesn't quite explain why more variation would be a bad thing. Where does he draw the line and why does he draw it there?

In other words, he doesn't point out the flaw in Sander's analysis...

However, selfing is rare in orchids and this brings us back to the question of the role of hybridization in speciation. A general review of the problem may help us to hypothesize on the orchid situation. Hybrids appear to be exceedingly uncommon among rain-forest trees, and the most likely explanation is that there is strong selective pressure against hybridization (Ashton, 1969). On the other hand, few tropical forest species are able to colonize cleared sites, while a number of examples exist of successful colonization of such areas by hybrids. (As, for example, hybrids referred to by van Steenis, 1969, and Hevea Aubl., by Seibert and Baldwin, as quoted by Stebbins, 1950, p. 264) The reason for this is that plants in a more or less undisturbed habitat are adapted to that habitat or they would not have survived there. Genetic recombination - as well as mutation - simply by being different gives rise to a great preponderance of genotypes not adapted to the environment. It is also probable that species adaptation is based to a large extent upon epistatic gene interaction (i.e., interaction at different loci), in which case the complex interacting system will very easily be upset by hybridization (Mayr, 1969; Stebbins, 1969). Rarely, recombination may give rise to plants adapted to a different environment, hence the survival of hybrids perhaps at points of natural environmental transition and most certainly at points where disturbance has led to removal of most competitors as well as change in the nonbiotic environment. More rarely still, recombinations may give rise to individuals better adapted to the same envirionment inhabited by the parents (i.e., having superior competitive adaptability). - William W. Sanford, The Ecology of Orchids

If a Dendrophylax hybrid was too different...then it wouldn't be adapted to D. lindenii's habitat. At worst, it wouldn't be adapted to any habitat in Florida. And at best, the hybrid would be adapted to orchards and/or cleared sites in Florida...of which there are more than enough.

If two species are way too different, then crossing them wouldn't even be possible. Like trying to cross a Cattleya and an Oncidium. If they are too different, then you can cross them but their progeny would be sterile. Like crossing a horse and a donkey produces a sterile mule. If they are not too different then their progeny would be fertile...

We may point to the case of Cattleya skinneri, which has all the earmarks of a bee flower, and C. aurantiaca, which seems to be a hummingbird flower. While we do not know which agent is responsible, there is no doubt that some one organism still effectively pollinates both species, even if rarely, for they hybridize in southern Mexico and Guatemala to produce C. x guatemalensis. Quite a hybrid swarm occurs, and some elements of the complex have been named as species (C. deckeri, C. pachecoi). - Robert L. Dressler, The Orchids

So people aren't concerned with scenarios where the two species are way too different, nor are they concerned with scenarios where the two species are too different (except for one person)...they are concerned with scenarios where the two species are not too different. In other words, they are concerned with scenarios in which the two species are kinda similar. Except, they aren't concerned with scenarios where the hybridizer is some unknown organism...as with C. skinneri and aurantiaca...they are concerned with scenarios where the hybridizer is human.

Speaking of invasive species, pollinators, skinneri and Florida...

This supports, in part, the idea that pollination limitation may be a barrier to orchid naturalization. The recent naturalization of two tropical bees in southern Florida, an orchid bee (Pemberton & Wheeler 2006), and an oil collecting bee (Pemberton & Liu 2008), may reduce this pollinator limitation and both promote some already naturalized orchids and facilitate the naturalization of some ornamental orchids. The orchid bee, Euglossa viridissima Friese, visits many different ornamental orchids (Pemberton 2007a), and is pollinating and causing considerable fruit set in Guarianthe skinneri (Bateman) Dressler & W.E. Higgins (Pemberton 2007b). The oil-collecting bee, Centris nitida Smith, is pollinating and inducing fruit set in the ornamental Oncidium sphacelatum Lindl. (Pemberton, in press), and is the only known pollinator of the invasive cowhorn orchid, Cyrtopodium polyphyllum (Vell.) Pabst ex F. Barrios, (Liu and Pemberton, unpubl. Data). It is doubtful that either of these naturalized bees visits the flowers of Eulophia graminea because they are quite unlike the flowers used by them. - Pemberton et al. An Asian orchid, Eulophia graminea (Orchidaceae: Cymbidieae), Naturalizes in Florida

[Subrosa]

Originally Posted by orchidsarefun

Hummingbirds breed somewhere ? At the moment its only the ruby-throated hummingbird - thats been documented in IL.
Illinois Hummingbirds -
Other examples , some protected some unregulated.
Ferrets - Established Species of Non-native Mammals in California - California Department of Fish and Wildlife

The problem with making general statements is that they are easily discounted.

Uh, to answer your question, yes, Ruby Throated Hummingbirds do breed somewhere. I would expect that the presence of more than one would make that self evident. Non sequiturs like this are why I'm in your debt and likely to remain so.

[gravotrope]

i like the million orchid project. Dr Carl Lewis, the botanical garden director, knows what he is doing. they will not all be in the same spot, and i am certain it will be a genetically diverse group of plants from different parents. this is the traditional snapshot method of conservation, which i dont at all have a problem with, but in the long run in Florida...it just may be a waste of effort like most of the past 100 years of development down here.

We need to ask ourselves to define a species, because in doing so we find it is not simple. Flower size, shape, and color actually end up being extremely poor identifiers of a species not as previously thought, and highlight the importance of molecular phylogenetics. outside of one species, biodiversity is simply the number of different species in an area, but as more time passes it is being used to express the amount of differentiation in total, inclusive of species and species variants, or at least that is where i see it having the most value. all plants have the same gene for metabolizing sugar, therefore it is highly likely that all plants whether they produce lignin or just cellulose, or flowers or no flowers are related. this is the introduction to understanding the machinery of evolution.

there are flowers in california that need to cross pollinate to set seed, and yet outliers of these populations can self pollinate just fine. this is not a different species, just a different expression of the same genes. i would attribute it to epigenetics but that's just a stab in the dark.

People in this thread have brought up the subfamily Epidendroideae which is a perfect example for how our understanding of these processes is shifting. ever heard of a BLC cross? or the Encyclia as a species complex? Ask Dr. Ruben Sauleda about it. these are further examples of how epidendroids are not totally separate from their ancient swarms. And it illustrates beautifully that the way we as a whole understand species needs to be updated.

i think the essence of epiphytes proposal is that the swarm that yielded the ghost orchid in a manner of speaking still exists, and other genes in the swarm can benefit the genetic material contained by lindenii. the ghost orchid can be propagated and grown outside of its habitat, and at the end of the day that is all that needs to happen to ensure it will be around long after we are gone, and long after the everglades are history. their current habitat is vast, far larger than all of the settled area in the entirety of south florida, and because of this i would say there is honestly no chance it has been extirpated, and therefore in fact there must be plants that have not been included in any census, but no one has noted that the habitat has an expiration date.

South Florida Adapting Infrastructure to Rising Sea Levels | Popular Science

the reason why florida will sink has nothing to do with the coastline and everything to do with the young porous limestone on which florida exists. no amount of coastal damming will help. the water will come up from underneath, then the everglades will be gone, and the wild tolumnia, oncidium, brassia, dendrophylax, harrisella, cyrtopodium, and encyclia will have nothing to adapt to except briny water.

This is why 'conservation' when applied to south florida is short sighted. I'm not trying to say it is bad, just insufficient in 100 years. On the other hand maybe some orchids from the million orchid project are going to be the grand parents for the habitat that comes next in central Florida, or that there will be people who will save them from the sea. i would bet on that if i were a better.

And honestly i have been thinking about this type of hybridization for a while now and the two things that would preserve the flower's unique shape are a cross with Dendrophylax sallei, or a backcross of a gripps ghost with lindenii then selecting for flower shape or more importantly temperature tolerance. This will yield a hybrid that is well over 80% lindenii since these three species already have a statistically significant similarity in their genes, meaning they are already close relatives and could be used to create a species complex for natural selection to sort out in a new habitat AFTER the ghost orchid's habitat has vanished. that is a good idea for 60 years from now, but not the short term.

As a side note, I am just an amateur and have to admit I have come up with some creative theories involving the dispersal of these wonderful angraecoids to the carribean having to do with birds, since they seem a more probable method of dispersal than the current theory of a powerful storm carrying it across the atlantic. I guess both are possible, but think about a bird's talon, the grooves and rough skin are tucked in for a flight of hundreds of miles, then it rests on a branch...in a swamp. Now that really makes sense to me.

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by Subrosa

Uh, to answer your question, yes, Ruby Throated Hummingbirds do breed somewhere. I would expect that the presence of more than one would make that self evident. Non sequiturs like this are why I'm in your debt and likely to remain so.

If the ruby-throated hummingbird establishes itself and breeds in an area that it wasn't in before, doesn't that make it a non-native species to that area ? Effectively an invasive species ? The analogy cannot be simpler.
I notice you don't respond to the list of all the non-native species in California.

[Subrosa]

You're laboring under the illusion that a migratory species is native to one place.