A Different Way To Protect The Ghost Orchid

[epiphyte78]

Originally Posted by orchid-asmr

So i may sound simple but i think in trying to preserve the ghost orchid by hybridizing it with another species that im assuming isnt even a native species, wouldn't end up being the Florida species anymore. Yes there are natural hybrids in nature but if these hybrids end up being more viable in the environment then you better believe that it will out compete its parent species. Not only that but hybrid species if isolated long enough become their own species.

Have you ever tried to grow either Dendrophylax lindenii or funalis? A long time ago I killed a couple small lindenii seedlings. It's been so long I don't remember where I got them from. For some reason I'm thinking Oakhill.

I had much better success growing funalis, which I purchased from Santa Barbara Orchid Estate. The funalis did great outside all year long here in SoCal. Unfortunately, I decided to test its sun tolerance. It died.

My point is that both species are adapted to different conditions. Dendrophylax funalis is much more tolerant of drier and cooler conditions than lindenii.

Admittedly, I haven't tried to grow funalis in conditions that are perfect for lindenii. But it's generally the case that genetic advantages in drier conditions are disadvantages in wetter conditions... and vice versa. Does this make sense? The same exact traits that make a Golden Barrel cactus a winner in the desert would make it a loser in the jungle.

So when you say "environment"... you need to appreciate that Florida really is not a uniform environment. If you've been growing plants for more than a few years, you should really appreciate that even a small garden will have many different microhabitats. An entire state, let alone a state the size of Florida, will have countless different environments.

If you can fully appreciate the diversity of environments in Florida... and also appreciate that some traits are advantageous in some environments but disadvantageous in others... then you should appreciate that herclivation of Dendrophylax is far more likely to increase, rather than decrease, its variety and quantity.

Originally Posted by orchid-asmr

you are correct that there are more species in different parts of the world but that doesnt mean they are not competing for resources (for more room, pollinators or nutrients). they arent happy tree friends sitting under the sun!

Well yeah, organisms compete for resources. Hummingbirds and honeybees compete for nectar. But I'm pretty sure that plants benefit from this competition. Honeybees aren't native to the Americas. Let's say that, with a snap of your fingers, all the honeybees in the Americas would be wiped out. Would you snap your fingers? I'm guessing that you wouldn't.

Originally Posted by orchid-asmr

A hybrid can also mess up the natural pollinators by changing its scent or even the shape of the flower making things even worse.

How can a hybrid mess up the natural pollinators when the pollinators are the main selectors? Not too long ago I (or maybe the hummingbirds) created an Aloe hybrid. Just recently it bloomed for the first time and I observed hummingbirds drinking nectar from the flowers. These hummingbirds are the first ones in the world to try the nectar from this hybrid. Given that they regularly visit the flowers... I'm guessing that they must enjoy it. Do they prefer it over the flowers of other Aloes? That's up the hummingbirds to decide for themselves. I certainly trust their ability to decide for themselves how much benefit they derive from the hybrid compared to the alternatives.

Personally, I like the hybrid. This means that I really don't want to lose it. Fortunately, it produces lots and lots of offshoots. In order to avoid the fundamental problem of having all my eggs in one basket, I've been sharing cuttings with friends. It's up to each and every friend to decide whether they share cuttings with their friends. As the hybrid proliferates... more and more hummingbirds will be able to try the nectar and decide how it compares to the nectar from other Aloes. If more and more hummingbirds decide they really like it, then the hybrid will end up with more seeds... which could potentially be shared and spread by humans. Some of the seeds might turn out to be new hybrids... and the process will repeat.

What Nature is doing is trying to get Aloes into new and different environments. Nature wants there to be a huge variety of Aloes that have no problem growing outdoors year around in Canada. Just like she wants there to be a huge variety of epiphytic orchids that have no problem growing outdoors year around in Canada. Nature wants the widest variety of life to be in as many baskets as possible. The very reason why Nature created us humans is so that we can spread, or help spread, life across the universe. Each and every galaxy in the universe should have an incredible variety and quantity of Ghost orchids.

Originally Posted by orchid-asmr

to be honest there are no short cuts in conservation. we humans just have to suck it up and put the effort in awareness and care for the environment!!

From my perspective, herclivation is much better than conservation...

herclivation > conservation

I've endeavored to explain why I prefer herclivation. You can decide for yourself which one you prefer. It's pretty great having a choice... isn't it?

[isurus79]

Oh no, why was this thread revived?!?!

I encourage everyone to unsubscribe from this nonsense....as I'm doing right now.

[gnathaniel]

[epiphyte78]

Just read a somewhat relevant article about crossing Florida native monopodial orchids with foreign ones...

There are four species of vanilla orchid native to Florida, all of them endangered by habitat destruction and illegal collection.

"A single major hurricane event could literally wipe out a significant portion of the existing population, if not all of it," Chambers said. - Associated Press

By combining the best genes from native and non-native varieties, Chambers and colleague Elias Bassil will attempt to create new and superior varieties of vanilla. - Associated Press

"It is labor intensive," Cellier said. "Every single flower has to be hand pollinated. That is, until Alan and the other researchers can figure out how to get self-pollination to work." - Associated Press

Moyroud has been working with native plants for a long time. Over the years, his definition of native has changed.

"Plants don't observe political boundaries," Moyroud said.

Moyroud notes that much of Florida is part of a wider region that shares flora with the Bahamas, Cuba, Yucatan Peninsula and the Greater Antilles. Anything that thrives in another part of the region will probably thrive in Florida.

"We have seasonal summer rains, we have hurricanes, we have droughts and we have limestone soil," Moyroud said. "Vanilla fits in beautifully."

At Plantio la Orquidea, Rafael Romero recently started growing a specimen of Vanilla barbellata, one of the native species.

Romero, a biologist, is hopeful for the restoration of native orchids like the vanilla species, but he has some skepticism.

"We can reproduce them. That's not the problem," Romero said. "It's the habitat. The natural habitat is destroyed, so there is nowhere to put them back."

Romero and wife Tina Romero grow orchids of all kinds from seed. The plants eventually make it out into suburbia.

In Coral Gables, Fairchild Botanical Garden has an entire program dedicated to growing and reintroducing native Florida orchids called the Fairchild Million Orchid Project. - Associated Press

In Miami, the Fairchild Million Orchid Project is introducing a new generation of children to the wonders of Florida's orchids. School grounds are one of the primary sites for orchid reintroduction. - Associated Press

Florida native orchids are being crossed with foreign orchids and the hybrids are being grown outdoors. Some of these crosses are going to be naturally pollinated... and some of the wind-dispersed seeds are going to germinate... thanks to the necessary fungus... which may or may not be native. This combination of artificial and natural selection will increase the variety of Florida's wild orchids.

[prem]

Vanilla seeds are rather massive and fall on the ground near the parent plant, perhaps spread by water, but not wind dispersed. Also, these suggested hybrids would be produced for the purpose of harvesting the pods pre-dehiscence to create vanilla flavoring.

-Prem

[Orchid Whisperer]

Vanilla cultivated for flavoring is hand-pollinated.

The Vanilla pods are harvested before they dehisc. Given the labor-intensive process required to get seed pods to establish on the plants, the value of natural Vanilla is high enough that no responsible grower would allow the pods to dehisc naturally. Although forest cultivation occurs in some less-developed agricultural countries, It is highly likely that any hypothetical Vanilla production in Florida would occur in confinement (for ease of cultivation and quite likely to protect native endangered Vanilla from cross-pollinating with the hybrids).

Visions of hybrid Vanilla wild-pollinating with, and somehow "improving" wild native Vanilla species, are delusional. Thanks again epiphyte78, for once again reinforcing that you can read nearly anything and somehow make it fit your wacko world view of "protection" of native plants.

[epiphyte78]

Prem, every seed is wind dispersed... in a hurricane. Why are Vanilla seeds so massive? Are they bigger/heavier than reed-stem Epidendrum seeds? I'm curious because reed-stem seeds have enough nutrients to germinate without the help of a fungal partner, so if Vanilla seeds are even heavier, it stands to reason that they might also be able to germinate on their own.

Orchid Whisperer, what, exactly, do you mean by "confinement"? Maybe I missed it, but I don't think the article I shared mentioned anything about growing Vanillas in greenhouses. The article did mention intercropping...

"Co-cropping" the vanilla with avocado, citrus or nut trees on existing farms would mean getting more use out of the same piece of land, a win-win for growers and the environment.

The article also mentioned shadehouses...

Another option for growing vanilla in Florida is monoculture in shade houses. The simple and relatively inexpensive structures can sustain the right conditions for plants to thrive and enable more intensive production.

Intercropping and shadehouses would both potentially permit cross-pollination between cultivated and wild Vanillas.

Logically the farmers would want to select for varieties of Vanilla that were naturally pollinated, thus eliminating the high cost of artificial pollination.

To this day, vanilla production depends on sources of cheap labor to carry out pollination, and so the identification of its natural pollinators is of potential economic significance. - Pesach Lubinsky et al, Pollination of Vanilla and evolution in Orchidaceae

[Orchid Whisperer]

Shadehouses are a form of confinement. They can be built to exclude insects. Vanilla is often grown in confinement.

Commercial Vanilla production relies on hand pollination due to the high failure rate/uncertainty of natural pollination. Hand pollination increases the potential for high quality Vanilla "beans" rather than low quality. Most likely the very remote potential for pollination with native/ endangered / wild Vanilla would be considered as an adverse environmental impact when locating (or excluding) vanilla production.

[WeirdGuySeattle]

Your proposal isn't about saving the ghost orchid, its about hybridizing something new and unleashing it in the wild.

I am not sure I care about your approach to starting some new hybrid plants naturalization - it may be reckless, it may be benign. I don't know.

But you should be honest with yourself - its not saving a species from extinction.

Your argument is akin to just genetically engineering heat or drought tolerant genetics into the plant. Or genetically introducing spines to combat the pythons...

In any case, you aren't saving a species from extinction, you are trying to create a new species.

[epiphyte78]

WeirdGuySeattle, Dendrophylax funalis can grow outside here in Southern California, lindenii can't. This is simply because lindenii needs a lot more humidity than funalis. So lindenii is better adapted to more humid conditions while funalis is better adapted to less humid conditions. This means that in a Florida swamp, lindenii would grow lower on the trees while funalis would grow higher on the trees. A hybrid between them could potentially grow anywhere between both species on the trees.

Am I trying to save lindenii from extinction? What I'm trying to do is facilitate the adaptive radiation of Dendrophylax. What I want is more, rather than less, species of Dendrophylax. I want a million different species of Dendrophylax growing on trees from Florida to California and from Canada to Argentina.

Right now there are around 30,000 species of orchids. Did there always used to be 30,000 species? Of course not. At one point there was only 1 species. Nature decided that she wanted more orchid species. Nature always wants more species. So do I. I want each and every planet in the universe to have gazillions of different orchid species.

Nature and I both want the universe to have the maximum amount of life possible.