orchid seeds on ebay?

[Orchidbyte]

I found this seller on eBay they claim to offer a soil you just put orchid seed on top of and walla seeds grow and grow.

Beauty Flowers Brassavola Cucullata 1000 Orchid Seeds Sown in 1 25 Lt Turf | eBay

That's the link, being an orchid grower for over 40 years I know that ain't right.

Anybody like to comment on this?

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

This is something that has been brought up on many occasions before on the OB. I am one of the few members who mentions about this repeatedly here. A search can be done on the OB's search engine, and you will find some threads in which some of the comments I made about this will show up. So, yes, Orchidbyte, for the most part you're correct.

There is a science to this, and when I mention that a huge majority of orchids under a large majority of circumstances cannot be sown ex-vitro outside of where they are found in the wild in a very big number of cases, (for example, trying to grow Bulbophyllum seeds on any random soil in a pot in Los Angeles - sorry, it isn't going to work, and not because I said so either), it is not a guess or an idea, it is based on testable and observable facts/data.

To spare people of some of the science behind it, (because it has already been mentioned repeatedly on the OB, and it can be somewhat of a lengthy post), all I will say is that it is best to sow orchid seeds, (yes, especially the terrestrial orchid seeds, even a massive majority of these will not germinate by sprinkling the seeds on random soil, there must be a set of specific circumstances that allows for proper seed germination in orchids), at an orchid seed sowing lab, (yes, including the tiny, tiny, tiny few number of species where the seeds will germinate on damp moss or damp coco coir, such as Bletilla striata, Disa aurata, Disa tripetaloides, and Disa uniflora, because the protocorms will eventually be difficult to raise ex-vitro). Keep in mind, I only mentioned a small handful of orchid species that has demonstrated that they can be reliably and repeatedly sown ex-vitro out of over 25,000 species of orchids in the world.

If some other members on the OB want to contribute to this thread, then they may do so, but I've pretty much said what I think needs to be said as briefly and to the point as possible.

Summing it up: I think that orchid seeds are more efficiently and effectively sown in a flask in a lab. An overwhelmingly large majority of orchids have demonstrated on a huge number of occasions, that their seeds cannot be sown outside of their wild, natural range of habitat either reliably or, in many, many cases, successfully at all.

[epiphyte78]

I noticed that guy as well. A couple of his listings showed up in my e-mail notifications.

The basic idea is conceptually solid and pretty great...but the vendor doesn't mention whether the "turf" is inoculated with the fungus that the orchid seeds need to germinate. It's entirely possible that the "turf" is old potting media that could contain the fungus. But why would he fail to mention the fact that orchid seeds need specific fungus to germinate?

I just sent him a question asking whether the "turf" has the necessary fungus. We'll see what he replies. It might be a case of caveat emptor.

A couple months ago I had a Renanthera hybrid seed germinate right next to a small trailing epiphytic fern that another member of the ESSC had recently brought back from Thailand or Cambodia. The fern is growing in a pot in a zip lock bag under lights in my garage. Either the fungus happened to be on the fern or it's in the fern's roots. When the fern gets bigger I can give you a division of it and you can try to reduplicate my experiment. Right now the orchid seedling is putting out its second leaf.

A week or two ago I sowed some mixed orchid seeds on top of some promising medium with some promising live green moss. It's also in a zip lock bag in my garage. The largest seeds, which are from the reed stem Epidendrum, have turned into tiny green balls. I wouldn't be surprised if they continued their development. I'm under the impression that they are less finicky when it comes to their fungal partners... and/or they might even have enough nutrients not to need them. In either case...the trick will be to cross them with other species to see if any of the hybrids can also be easily grown from seed.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Yes, part of the problem is the absence of the fungal symbiont in cultivation. Most of the times, for a large majority of orchids, those fungi aren't available for a huge number of people. Keep in mind, it isn't just 1 specific species of fungus that does it all for every orchid, it is a certain family of fungi, with each group of orchid responding to either a certain specific species or a few select species of fungi within the family of fungi, it's a bit complicated.

[tropterrarium]

Absolutely agree with king. There are a few exceptions that prove the rule. I have some Liparis caespitosa growing in random places in my GH. Only possibility is from seeds. Andy mentioned that to me when I got the plant. Again, this is a rare exception.


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[Pat'sCatt's]

How 'funny' i came accross this 'seller' also yesterday on Ebay. What also was very strange, all the photo's were taken from a book or something like that. And with every listing the last picture was a Phal crammed into a vase with half of the rootbal sticking out! Hopefully there won't be a lot of buyers for this turf bag of nonsense!!

[epiphyte78]

The vendor pretty quickly replied to my query...

***********************

Hi,
Yes…
The seeds are first bedded in eukaryotic organisms that includes microorganisms such as yeasts and molds , as well as the more familiar tiny mushrooms. These organisms we call here as Fungi.
Most fungi are invisible because of the small size of their structures, and their cryptic lifestyles in soil, on dead matter, and as symbionts of plants, animals, or other fungi. They may become noticeable when fruiting, sometimes as mushrooms or sometimes molds.
This bedded mixture of fungi and species seeds, are then mixed with turf and kept in a safe (proper conditions)
Thank you for your interest.
Kind Regards
Erold

***********************

He does get points for a prompt response...but it doesn't necessarily sound like he's done his homework.

I agree with Pat'sCatt's that the photos all look like they came from a book and the Phal in the vase doesn't instill much confidence. If he has truly successfully raised orchids from seed using this method then we'd expect to see some photos of the orchids in various stages of development.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by epiphyte78

I just sent him a question asking whether the "turf" has the necessary fungus. We'll see what he replies. It might be a case of caveat emptor.

Given the seller lists their location as Ankara, Turkey, the fungus won't be the only thing missing from the 'turf'.

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Orchid seed sowing aside, tropterrarium, that is a really cool photo of an Oberonia flower. Which species is it?

[tropterrarium]

Hi King, someone noticed! It is O. setigera, I mean true setigera. As you will know, the flower is about 1.5 mm in size, and they occur on long inflorescences bearing hundreds of flowers. The way I took the photo is by pinching one flower off, spiking the pedicel on a small tungsten needle (much finer point than any steel needles), then put the blunt end into a styrofoam hemisphere with flat part covered with black velvet, round part in a piece of wood with a hole in it, so then could adjust viewing angle.
The image was taken on a Zeiss Discovery V20 stereomicroscope, a 1.5x planapochromatic lens, objective slider (to ensure that optical axis is parallel to z/focus-axis), and Axiocam HRc digital microscope camera. Motorized microscope focus was controlled with Zeiss Zen Blue software package and z-stack module, at 70% of depth of field. Resultant images were z-stacked in Zerene Stacker using the Pmax algorithm.
You may notice that the image has a granular texture in the flower. Those are the individual cells! On the full size image you can count them.

For further details, see my article in Orchid Digest:
Geiger, D. L. Imaging small orchid flowers using visible light. Orchid Digest 77: 112–123.
There is a web article on the AOS site using a slightly earlier set-up (without motorization):
http://www.aos.org/Default.aspx?id=355

I also wrote a couple of AOS Orchids articles on Oberonia:
Geiger. D. L. Oberonia: the microscopist's delight. Orchids. 83(9): 558–563.
Geiger, D. L. 2014. Adventures in misidentified orchids. Orchids 83(1): 174–176.

Enjoy!