Against the "Status Quo" - Page 3 - Orchid Board

HighSeas · #21 07-02-2014, 04:20 PM

David...can you give me an example of your routine? I'm evaluating some changes. Thanks!

Optimist · #22 07-02-2014, 05:30 PM

I'm no chemist but I have a kind of working theory. Don't laugh!

I looked for papers on velamen a while ago, as I searched for the best way to water my phals. (Not vandas, but to me it is a similar type orchid).

Zotz , G., and Winkler, U., support "Wents Hypothesis" that velamen takes up heavily charged ion particles (charged with nutrients) only in the first few seconds of a soaking, so it really makes sense that "filling up on plain water" is going to create a situation where the plant shuts down its ability to take in any more water (with your fertilizer in it). I have been keeping the phals outside. Last night they got about 4 hours of rain. I'm betting that they took up the first few moments and then closed off. Further, in the paper it goes to say that the charged Ions carrying suspended particles of organic matter, minerals or what have you only carry it in the first few moments of the rain shower. I have been going through a phase where I think that not only do you need to make sure it gets nutrients with the first blast of water, but also that Ions need to be produced. All this talk of CAM plants makes me think that the Ions that signal a rain shower are instrumental in signaling in some way that the stomata should open. (Makes sense, as velamen is often said to be where gaseous exchange takes place. This is the place where ions very quickly drop off their load.). I"ve seen various experiments regarding ions and plants, and it is shown that plants do better in their presence.

The reference is

Zotz , G., and Winkler, U., Oecologia 2003 Mar: 171 (3) 733-41. doi: 10.1007/soo44z-o12-2575-6. Epub 2013 Jan 6.

CO2 is only taken up at light, stored in vacuoles. This causes a build up of oxaloacetate. The stomata are only open at night when it is relatively cool and humid. They stay closed during the day when it is hot and dry. This means less sugars are made and results in slower growth. The stomata that open are located in the velamen. Velamen radicum is an important adaptation to the CAM plant.

(I remember when I first started to learn this stuff that people told me they got their nutrients from random bird droppings. The situation is more like when evaporation happens and clouds are formed the stuff in the evaporated water, if light enough also goes into the cloud and begins the domino effect that leads to rain. Obviously currents, cold and hot fronts and the rest are also involved. But there is a connection (IMHO) between rain and "feeding orchids") I feel if at all you can get them into natural rain, it is best. I do not think the same will happen with stored rain water, although it is certainly better than tap water.

tucker85 · #23 07-02-2014, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighSeas

---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:39 PM ----------

[/COLOR]

The information in Martin Motes book "Florida Orchid Growing" is almost identical to his book on vandas. The only difference is a few chapters on other orchids like cattleyas and oncidiums. All the culture information and the month to month information is exactly the same.

Thanks Tucker! That's VERY nice to know! I know you've commented that you know growers that have just used the magnesium with great success.

---------- Post added at 07:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:19 PM ----------

This is the first complete year that I've used RO water on my plants. I've noticed a big difference however, I'm seeing some yellowing which is giving me the impression that they are lacking in the micronutrients, even though I feed with MSU for pure water.

Is anyone watering with straight RO water between feedings?[/QUOTE]

There are actually 5 macro-nutrients, nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, calcium and magnesium. The micro-nutrients are important too, especially iron. MSU pure water formula has all five nutrients plus the micros, so it should provide everything the orchid need. I give my orchids a little more calcium and magnesium by using a cal/mag supplement called MagiCal, made by Technaflora, twice a month by itself. I'm not sure it's necessary but my orchids grow pretty fast in South Florida so extra calcium insures that the new growth is strong and resistant to fungus and insects.

Optimist · #24 07-02-2014, 05:33 PM

Ions are free atoms in a way, and they glom on to other free atoms in order to make complete molecules. BTW

This is all sort of complicated to me. I am glad to see other people understand it better than me.

tucker85 · #25 07-02-2014, 05:35 PM

One more tidbit of information. I was at my orchid society meeting last night and Sandi, from Broward Orchid Supply, said that Martin Motes is working on new editions of his books with some updated information. It might be worth waiting for the new edition to come out.

JMNYC · #26 07-02-2014, 06:12 PM

For whatever it may be worth....given the liminatikons of my gkrowing condtins, i take eveyr single orchid scheduled for tending on a given day, to the kitchen sink. I first do drench the medium with plain running water. I then drain and then put the plant in one of the many containers I employ just for this purpose, and fill it up with my fertilizing solution and let it sit for a few mins. All I can say is appears to work really well and has for a long time.

DavidCampen · #27 07-02-2014, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HighSeas

David...can you give me an example of your routine? I'm evaluating some changes. Thanks!

I prepare my watering and nutrient solution in a 10 gallon plastic tank. My RO water is stored in pressurized bladder tanks;the solution tank employs a float valve to shut off the RO water when the solution tank is filled. A 24 volt electric pump takes the water from the tank to my sprayer.

stonedragonfarms · #28 07-02-2014, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Optimist

I'm no chemist but I have a kind of working theory. Don't laugh!

I looked for papers on velamen a while ago, as I searched for the best way to water my phals. (Not vandas, but to me it is a similar type orchid).

Zotz , G., and Winkler, U., support "Wents Hypothesis" that velamen takes up heavily charged ion particles (charged with nutrients) only in the first few seconds of a soaking, so it really makes sense that "filling up on plain water" is going to create a situation where the plant shuts down its ability to take in any more water (with your fertilizer in it). I have been keeping the phals outside. Last night they got about 4 hours of rain. I'm betting that they took up the first few moments and then closed off. Further, in the paper it goes to say that the charged Ions carrying suspended particles of organic matter, minerals or what have you only carry it in the first few moments of the rain shower. I have been going through a phase where I think that not only do you need to make sure it gets nutrients with the first blast of water, but also that Ions need to be produced. All this talk of CAM plants makes me think that the Ions that signal a rain shower are instrumental in signaling in some way that the stomata should open. (Makes sense, as velamen is often said to be where gaseous exchange takes place. This is the place where ions very quickly drop off their load.). I"ve seen various experiments regarding ions and plants, and it is shown that plants do better in their presence.

The reference is

Zotz , G., and Winkler, U., Oecologia 2003 Mar: 171 (3) 733-41. doi: 10.1007/soo44z-o12-2575-6. Epub 2013 Jan 6.

CO2 is only taken up at light, stored in vacuoles. This causes a build up of oxaloacetate. The stomata are only open at night when it is relatively cool and humid. They stay closed during the day when it is hot and dry. This means less sugars are made and results in slower growth. The stomata that open are located in the velamen. Velamen radicum is an important adaptation to the CAM plant.

(I remember when I first started to learn this stuff that people told me they got their nutrients from random bird droppings. The situation is more like when evaporation happens and clouds are formed the stuff in the evaporated water, if light enough also goes into the cloud and begins the domino effect that leads to rain. Obviously currents, cold and hot fronts and the rest are also involved. But there is a connection (IMHO) between rain and "feeding orchids") I feel if at all you can get them into natural rain, it is best. I do not think the same will happen with stored rain water, although it is certainly better than tap water.

Thanks for the info; it's got me wondering about the availability of micro/macronutrients in orchid pots via the media on days when not watering plants. I shifted my nutrient regime and frequency this year in my Aussie dendrobium collection, based on observations from growers in Oz. A combination of Osmocote and water soluble fertilizers are applied directly to the pots and watered in; the applications are at about 1/4 of "optimum" (read recommended) levels, and the frequency of water application is less than I have adhered to in the past. If nutrient uptake is occurring in the roots only in those first few seconds, with the rest of the water/fertilizer being shunted, then would it be logical to infer that later evaporation of moisture from the media would continue to feed the plants?
No chemist here either...
Adam

Optimist · #29 07-03-2014, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stonedragonfarms

Thanks for the info; it's got me wondering about the availability of micro/macronutrients in orchid pots via the media on days when not watering plants. I shifted my nutrient regime and frequency this year in my Aussie dendrobium collection, based on observations from growers in Oz. A combination of Osmocote and water soluble fertilizers are applied directly to the pots and watered in; the applications are at about 1/4 of "optimum" (read recommended) levels, and the frequency of water application is less than I have adhered to in the past. If nutrient uptake is occurring in the roots only in those first few seconds, with the rest of the water/fertilizer being shunted, then would it be logical to infer that later evaporation of moisture from the media would continue to feed the plants?
No chemist here either...
Adam

Interesting thought in a what comes down also goes up. I can't get it out of my head that negitive ions are needed for rhe process, but maybe not. As for how quick the process is. Put a tissue on a blob of water and see how quickly it soaks it up. I really feel that "misting" should be enough to keep an orchid happy. You really don't need to give more water than will cover the surface area of he roots. Also, I tend to think that these roots that go bad or die are doing so because they are enclosed in that plastic and forced to remain green, which is an unnatural state. They abort their own roots because they don't need them. One grower who wrote a blog basically said, if you want root growth on your phal, deny it water.

stonedragonfarms · #30 07-03-2014, 01:54 PM

If I am correctly interpreting the Went article and it's subsequent lines of derivative research, charged ions are held within the velamen, while uncharged ions are lost; I would suspect that you could simply mist your plants to keep them happy, provided that you accounted also for maintenance of humidity, airflow and the like. I believe that one of the reasons that we water is also to increase localized humidity around the plant.
It would be interesting to to mount up two stellar growing plants (Onc. Gower Ramsey comes to mind) and water one, while only misting the other to see if there is a notable difference in growth and flowering. Perhaps four plants would be needed, then we could also test out the pre-watering and then feeding vs. straight up feeding (both in a watering application and in a misting application...); and just for giggles, a fifth as well...I suspect that I keep the rh high enough in part of my gh that I might be able to maintain a mounted Gower Ramsey without watering it at all (aside from the occasional drip that comes from the glazing or errant throw from the hose)
Adam