Against the "Status Quo"

[RJSquirrel]

WWW was invented to keep us from killing our plants and wasnt ever reported as to be the best way to grow them orchids?

probably why I got a lot of skinny crap in a pot too huh?

I been doing this all worng

[DavidCampen]

Every time I water I use RO water to which I have added nutrients.

[HighSeas]

David...can you give me an example of your routine? I'm evaluating some changes. Thanks!

[DavidCampen]

Originally Posted by HighSeas

David...can you give me an example of your routine? I'm evaluating some changes. Thanks!

I prepare my watering and nutrient solution in a 10 gallon plastic tank. My RO water is stored in pressurized bladder tanks;the solution tank employs a float valve to shut off the RO water when the solution tank is filled. A 24 volt electric pump takes the water from the tank to my sprayer.

[Hiester]

I’ve been reading through this topic and just want to state this information, since I noted there have been a few misstatements along the way regarding the names and numbers of essential elements for plants. All plants need a total of THIRTEEN essential elements in order to survive and thrive. There are SIX macro-nutrients and SEVEN micro-nutrients. Primary macro-nutrients are nitrogen–N, phosphorus–P, and potassium–K. These three macro-nutrients (essential elements) are generally in lower supply in soil/media because plants use up large amounts of these three for growth as well as for survival. The breakdown of organic matter supplies these nutrients in the natural world, but practices like farming and ornamental gardening tend to deplete these nutrients from the soil, thus they need to be added back via the addition of composted organic material or through fertilizing. The secondary macro-nutrients (essential elements) are calcium–Ca, magnesium–Mg, and sulfur–S. These three nutrients are generally in abundant supply in soils, often from the slow weathering of solid mineral matter, so plants rarely use up all the available supply.

The seven micro-nutrients (essential elements) are boron–B, copper–Cu, iron–Fe, chloride–Cl, manganese–Mn, molybdenum–Mo and zinc–Zn. Because plants generally do not need much of these seven elements the breakdown of old vegetative organic matter in soils tends to supply these necessary nutrients in abundance from a plant perspective.

Though lots of orchids, as well as many other types of plants, grow as epiphytes or lithophytes, they still need all these essential elements available to them in order to survive and thrive.

Hope this didn’t bore anyone…

[King_of_orchid_growing:)]

Originally Posted by Hiester

I’ve been reading through this topic and just want to state this information, since I noted there have been a few misstatements along the way regarding the names and numbers of essential elements for plants. All plants need a total of THIRTEEN essential elements in order to survive and thrive. There are SIX macro-nutrients and SEVEN micro-nutrients. Primary macro-nutrients are nitrogen–N, phosphorus–P, and potassium–K. These three macro-nutrients (essential elements) are generally in lower supply in soil/media because plants use up large amounts of these three for growth as well as for survival. The breakdown of organic matter supplies these nutrients in the natural world, but practices like farming and ornamental gardening tend to deplete these nutrients from the soil, thus they need to be added back via the addition of composted organic material or through fertilizing. The secondary macro-nutrients (essential elements) are calcium–Ca, magnesium–Mg, and sulfur–S. These three nutrients are generally in abundant supply in soils, often from the slow weathering of solid mineral matter, so plants rarely use up all the available supply.

The seven micro-nutrients (essential elements) are boron–B, copper–Cu, iron–Fe, chloride–Cl, manganese–Mn, molybdenum–Mo and zinc–Zn. Because plants generally do not need much of these seven elements the breakdown of old vegetative organic matter in soils tends to supply these necessary nutrients in abundance from a plant perspective.

Though lots of orchids, as well as many other types of plants, grow as epiphytes or lithophytes, they still need all these essential elements available to them in order to survive and thrive.

Hope this didn’t bore anyone…

Not a bore.

Orchid nutrition is often a hot topic of discussion.

You're correct, but what you mentioned is only part of the story...

I think optimal nutrition for an orchid is dependent on the type of orchid, the type of environment those orchids come from, and what the nutrient availability is like in those environments.

I think that optimal nutrition for orchids is not necessarily a one-size-fits-all thing. You will most likely fail miserably if you try to apply one idea to all orchids. Some orchids will require different nutrient loads based on where they came from and what kinds of nutrients were available and at what concentrations the nutrients were available at in the orchid's natural habitat.

What I've just mentioned is the "Cliff Notes" version of what has to be said on the matter.

[Hiester]

Originally Posted by King_of_orchid_growing:)

Not a bore.

Orchid nutrition is often a hot topic of discussion.

You're correct, but what you mentioned is only part of the story...

I think optimal nutrition for an orchid is dependent on the type of orchid, the type of environment those orchids come from, and what the nutrient availability is like in those environments.

I think that optimal nutrition for orchids is not necessarily a one-size-fits-all thing. You will most likely fail miserably if you try to apply one idea to all orchids. Some orchids will require different nutrient loads based on where they came from and what kinds of nutrients were available and at what concentrations the nutrients were available at in the orchid's natural habitat.

What I've just mentioned is the "Cliff Notes" version of what has to be said on the matter.

Thank you, Philip. I agree that each species or hybrid might have differing requirements, all according to eons of adaptability to localized environmental conditions where they are found in nature.

Some might ask, where's oxygen and carbon dioxide? Aren't they also necessary? And the answer would be, "Yes." As they are used by plants in a gaseous state, they are covered under the topic of gases (i.e. atmosphere along with humidity and air movement), which also are essential requirements for plant survival.

[Optimist]

I'm no chemist but I have a kind of working theory. Don't laugh!

I looked for papers on velamen a while ago, as I searched for the best way to water my phals. (Not vandas, but to me it is a similar type orchid).

Zotz , G., and Winkler, U., support "Wents Hypothesis" that velamen takes up heavily charged ion particles (charged with nutrients) only in the first few seconds of a soaking, so it really makes sense that "filling up on plain water" is going to create a situation where the plant shuts down its ability to take in any more water (with your fertilizer in it). I have been keeping the phals outside. Last night they got about 4 hours of rain. I'm betting that they took up the first few moments and then closed off. Further, in the paper it goes to say that the charged Ions carrying suspended particles of organic matter, minerals or what have you only carry it in the first few moments of the rain shower. I have been going through a phase where I think that not only do you need to make sure it gets nutrients with the first blast of water, but also that Ions need to be produced. All this talk of CAM plants makes me think that the Ions that signal a rain shower are instrumental in signaling in some way that the stomata should open. (Makes sense, as velamen is often said to be where gaseous exchange takes place. This is the place where ions very quickly drop off their load.). I"ve seen various experiments regarding ions and plants, and it is shown that plants do better in their presence.

The reference is

Zotz , G., and Winkler, U., Oecologia 2003 Mar: 171 (3) 733-41. doi: 10.1007/soo44z-o12-2575-6. Epub 2013 Jan 6.

CO2 is only taken up at light, stored in vacuoles. This causes a build up of oxaloacetate. The stomata are only open at night when it is relatively cool and humid. They stay closed during the day when it is hot and dry. This means less sugars are made and results in slower growth. The stomata that open are located in the velamen. Velamen radicum is an important adaptation to the CAM plant.

(I remember when I first started to learn this stuff that people told me they got their nutrients from random bird droppings. The situation is more like when evaporation happens and clouds are formed the stuff in the evaporated water, if light enough also goes into the cloud and begins the domino effect that leads to rain. Obviously currents, cold and hot fronts and the rest are also involved. But there is a connection (IMHO) between rain and "feeding orchids") I feel if at all you can get them into natural rain, it is best. I do not think the same will happen with stored rain water, although it is certainly better than tap water.

[stonedragonfarms]

Originally Posted by Optimist

I'm no chemist but I have a kind of working theory. Don't laugh!

I looked for papers on velamen a while ago, as I searched for the best way to water my phals. (Not vandas, but to me it is a similar type orchid).

Zotz , G., and Winkler, U., support "Wents Hypothesis" that velamen takes up heavily charged ion particles (charged with nutrients) only in the first few seconds of a soaking, so it really makes sense that "filling up on plain water" is going to create a situation where the plant shuts down its ability to take in any more water (with your fertilizer in it). I have been keeping the phals outside. Last night they got about 4 hours of rain. I'm betting that they took up the first few moments and then closed off. Further, in the paper it goes to say that the charged Ions carrying suspended particles of organic matter, minerals or what have you only carry it in the first few moments of the rain shower. I have been going through a phase where I think that not only do you need to make sure it gets nutrients with the first blast of water, but also that Ions need to be produced. All this talk of CAM plants makes me think that the Ions that signal a rain shower are instrumental in signaling in some way that the stomata should open. (Makes sense, as velamen is often said to be where gaseous exchange takes place. This is the place where ions very quickly drop off their load.). I"ve seen various experiments regarding ions and plants, and it is shown that plants do better in their presence.

The reference is

Zotz , G., and Winkler, U., Oecologia 2003 Mar: 171 (3) 733-41. doi: 10.1007/soo44z-o12-2575-6. Epub 2013 Jan 6.

CO2 is only taken up at light, stored in vacuoles. This causes a build up of oxaloacetate. The stomata are only open at night when it is relatively cool and humid. They stay closed during the day when it is hot and dry. This means less sugars are made and results in slower growth. The stomata that open are located in the velamen. Velamen radicum is an important adaptation to the CAM plant.

(I remember when I first started to learn this stuff that people told me they got their nutrients from random bird droppings. The situation is more like when evaporation happens and clouds are formed the stuff in the evaporated water, if light enough also goes into the cloud and begins the domino effect that leads to rain. Obviously currents, cold and hot fronts and the rest are also involved. But there is a connection (IMHO) between rain and "feeding orchids") I feel if at all you can get them into natural rain, it is best. I do not think the same will happen with stored rain water, although it is certainly better than tap water.

Thanks for the info; it's got me wondering about the availability of micro/macronutrients in orchid pots via the media on days when not watering plants. I shifted my nutrient regime and frequency this year in my Aussie dendrobium collection, based on observations from growers in Oz. A combination of Osmocote and water soluble fertilizers are applied directly to the pots and watered in; the applications are at about 1/4 of "optimum" (read recommended) levels, and the frequency of water application is less than I have adhered to in the past. If nutrient uptake is occurring in the roots only in those first few seconds, with the rest of the water/fertilizer being shunted, then would it be logical to infer that later evaporation of moisture from the media would continue to feed the plants?
No chemist here either...
Adam

[Optimist]

Originally Posted by stonedragonfarms

Thanks for the info; it's got me wondering about the availability of micro/macronutrients in orchid pots via the media on days when not watering plants. I shifted my nutrient regime and frequency this year in my Aussie dendrobium collection, based on observations from growers in Oz. A combination of Osmocote and water soluble fertilizers are applied directly to the pots and watered in; the applications are at about 1/4 of "optimum" (read recommended) levels, and the frequency of water application is less than I have adhered to in the past. If nutrient uptake is occurring in the roots only in those first few seconds, with the rest of the water/fertilizer being shunted, then would it be logical to infer that later evaporation of moisture from the media would continue to feed the plants?
No chemist here either...
Adam

Interesting thought in a what comes down also goes up. I can't get it out of my head that negitive ions are needed for rhe process, but maybe not. As for how quick the process is. Put a tissue on a blob of water and see how quickly it soaks it up. I really feel that "misting" should be enough to keep an orchid happy. You really don't need to give more water than will cover the surface area of he roots. Also, I tend to think that these roots that go bad or die are doing so because they are enclosed in that plastic and forced to remain green, which is an unnatural state. They abort their own roots because they don't need them. One grower who wrote a blog basically said, if you want root growth on your phal, deny it water.

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