My judging rant....

[Brooke]

Let me give you an example. This is Bulb. vaginatum 'Highjack' AM/AOS awarded at show but it got a red ribbon in the ribbon judging portion of the show. I wondered how could something that was awarded, not win the Bulbo species class?


Bulb vaginatum 'Highjack' AM-AOS JCL_1070 by kentucky4, on Flickr

This is the one that beat it - Bulb. Elizabeth Ann 'Buckleberry' FCC/AOS. This is my plant but I did not own it when it was awarded several years ago.


Bulb Elizabeth Ann 'Buckleberry' FCC-AOS LUR_4604 by kentucky4, on Flickr

I have had the same thing happen at shows where something was awarded but did not receive the blue ribbon in the display. There was something better or more impressive and probably already awarded that could beat it.

Your purpurata is gorgeous but there was something there the judges considered better in the Catt species class. BTW the same judges do the ribbon judging and the AOS awards judging.

Grow your plant up for a couple more years and try again. Volunteer to clerk next year, you will learn a lot.

Brooke

[isurus79]

Brooke,
That's definitely a strange story! I would also imagine an awarded plant by the AOS should get the best ribbon too. So both your Bulbo (the red ribbon winner) and the blue ribbon winner got AOS awards that show?

I think that gotants? is also saying that in addition to the AOS awards/ribbons that there is a separate Redlands judging too. Did I understand this correctly?

[Brooke]

Let me give you a visual example. I got this awarded at a show but it received a second place ribbon in the ribbon judging. This is Bulb. vaginatum 'Highjack' AM/AOS and I could not see how anything could beat it to win the blue ribbon.


Bulb vaginatum 'Highjack' AM-AOS JCL_1070 by kentucky4, on Flickr

Here is the one that beat it - Bulb. Elizabeth Ann 'Buckelberry' FCC/AOS. This is my plant but I did not own it when it was awarded.


Bulb Elizabeth Ann 'Buckleberry' FCC-AOS LUR_4604 by kentucky4, on Flickr

I have had this happen at other shows where something was awarded but still didn't garner the blue ribbon.

Your purpurata is gorgeous and the Werkhauseri is my favorite variety. Grow it up for a couple more years and try again. Volunteer to clerk at the show next year to learn the process.

BTW the ribbon judging is done by the same AOS judges.

Brooke

[got ants]

This is the flower that got 1st place in unifoliat cattleya
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Again, I am flabbergasted with thye colors, but not so impressed with its form.

Unfortunately I was not around to see the results of the judging, and won't know until sunday when I pick my plant up.

[goodgollymissmolly]

You seem to continue to be mystified by the judging system. It's simple. The criteria are completely different and the judges can be completely different.

Ribbon judging compares plants entered in a particular class versus each other. Anyone can be a ribbon judge. It might be done by AOS judges or anyone else and they are comparing the entered plants, not commenting on their AOS Award characteristics. It's just a pretty contest mainly to put out ribbons for public consumption.

AOS judging is done by AOS trained judges and compares a particular plant versus the standard set by previously awarded plants of the same species or hybrid grex. It is a "continuous improvement" scaled system.

So look at Brooke's example...the vaginatum was second to the Elizabeth Ann when they were ribbon judged and even from the pictures that makes perfect sense.

For AOS judging the Elizabeth Ann already has an FCC. So the only way that could be upgraded to a higher score FCC is for Brooke's plant to be clearly superior to the already awarded 'Buckleberry' and it would still be a 'Bucklelberry' FCC were that to actually happen which is unlikely.

Her vaginatum lost to the Eliz Ann in a pretty contest for a ribbon (understandably) but when AOS judged against awarded clones of Bulb vaginatum the plant stood out as superior.

So the ribbon judging is a local plant versus plant in a given class event that may or may not be judged by AOS judges.

The AOS judging is a contest of a plant versus the award data base of the same species or grex. It is a much more important award than a ribbon at a show. AOS judging is always done by trained AOS judges. No one else can participate (but they can watch).

This is really pretty simple...ribbon and AOS judging are two completely different things..no connection. One is nearly meaningless and the other is important at least to people who like to show plants. And the answer is....no...the results of ribbon judging do not effect AOS judging or the selection of plants for AOS judging.

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by goodgollymissmolly

You seem to continue to be mystified by the judging system. It's simple. The criteria are completely different and the judges can be completely different.

Ribbon judging compares plants entered in a particular class versus each other. Anyone can be a ribbon judge. It might be done by AOS judges or anyone else and they are comparing the entered plants, not commenting on their AOS Award characteristics. It's just a pretty contest mainly to put out ribbons for public consumption.

AOS judging is done by AOS trained judges and compares a particular plant versus the standard set by previously awarded plants of the same species or hybrid grex. It is a "continuous improvement" scaled system.

So look at Brooke's example...the vaginatum was second to the Elizabeth Ann when they were ribbon judged and even from the pictures that makes perfect sense.

For AOS judging the Elizabeth Ann already has an FCC. So the only way that could be upgraded to a higher score FCC is for Brooke's plant to be clearly superior to the already awarded 'Buckleberry' and it would still be a 'Bucklelberry' FCC were that to actually happen which is unlikely.

Her vaginatum lost to the Eliz Ann in a pretty contest for a ribbon (understandably) but when AOS judged against awarded clones of Bulb vaginatum the plant stood out as superior.

So the ribbon judging is a local plant versus plant in a given class event that may or may not be judged by AOS judges.

The AOS judging is a contest of a plant versus the award data base of the same species or grex. It is a much more important award than a ribbon at a show. AOS judging is always done by trained AOS judges. No one else can participate (but they can watch).

This is really pretty simple...ribbon and AOS judging are two completely different things..no connection. One is nearly meaningless and the other is important at least to people who like to show plants. And the answer is....no...the results of ribbon judging do not effect AOS judging or the selection of plants for AOS judging.

Very well said!

[ronaldhanko]

Couldn't say it better.

Originally Posted by goodgollymissmolly

You seem to continue to be mystified by the judging system. It's simple. The criteria are completely different and the judges can be completely different.

Ribbon judging compares plants entered in a particular class versus each other. Anyone can be a ribbon judge. It might be done by AOS judges or anyone else and they are comparing the entered plants, not commenting on their AOS Award characteristics. It's just a pretty contest mainly to put out ribbons for public consumption.

AOS judging is done by AOS trained judges and compares a particular plant versus the standard set by previously awarded plants of the same species or hybrid grex. It is a "continuous improvement" scaled system.

So look at Brooke's example...the vaginatum was second to the Elizabeth Ann when they were ribbon judged and even from the pictures that makes perfect sense.

For AOS judging the Elizabeth Ann already has an FCC. So the only way that could be upgraded to a higher score FCC is for Brooke's plant to be clearly superior to the already awarded 'Buckleberry' and it would still be a 'Bucklelberry' FCC were that to actually happen which is unlikely.

Her vaginatum lost to the Eliz Ann in a pretty contest for a ribbon (understandably) but when AOS judged against awarded clones of Bulb vaginatum the plant stood out as superior.

So the ribbon judging is a local plant versus plant in a given class event that may or may not be judged by AOS judges.

The AOS judging is a contest of a plant versus the award data base of the same species or grex. It is a much more important award than a ribbon at a show. AOS judging is always done by trained AOS judges. No one else can participate (but they can watch).

This is really pretty simple...ribbon and AOS judging are two completely different things..no connection. One is nearly meaningless and the other is important at least to people who like to show plants. And the answer is....no...the results of ribbon judging do not effect AOS judging or the selection of plants for AOS judging.

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by cbuchman

I too have seen some weirdness in the orchid judging. I asked a probationary judge about this and was told that the AOS judging is against very strict criteria, but the non-AOS judging is pretty subjective, even when it is the same judges! I'm clerked for the general judging too and hence heard what is being said.

P.S. Here is the link to the AOS judging handbook, if you're interested
Judging Handbook

At the Philadelphia Flower Show this past March, I saw AOS awarded plants that had not received any ribbons in the general judging. In my opinion, the general judging looked for showiness and flash and did not take into account the difficulty of growing/blooming a particular plant. That's my opinion, of course.

Nonetheless, I enjoy showing my orchids and seeing what people say and then improving. I'm no where near an AOS judging caliber plant, but maybe some day.

my experience too........in fact on the ribbons' side, the judge said that he was looking for orchids that would wow the public, a sort of orchid "kerb appeal" factor. It makes sense as the general public would prefer the wow factor against the perceived so-so factor.

[Stray59]

I agree with the last few posts - and GoodGollyMissMolly states it about as well as it could be stated. Judging for ribbons and for AOS merit are two totally different beasts - different criteria, different opinions completely. Local ribbons are given for the plant that the judges think will really appeal to the public and may also be a personal choice on the part of the judges - they may just like one classification over another. That is HIGHLY subjective. But, AOS judging is done against AOS criteria and is very strict; a trained AOS judge will be looking at past plants that have won and will be looking for an improvement on the current "standard" of awarded plants. But this is also subjective to how well the judges know the criteria and also it is impossible to say that their personal preferences do not influence their decisions, although it is not supposed to.
Ultimately, all the plants that are shown are beauties - you have nothing to be ashamed of as your Cat. is gorgeous, but unless you have seen the standard that AOS awarded in YOUR orchid's classification, it is hard to say you had a better or poorer version of that plant.
Again, all the plants that have been posted here are phenomenal - be proud that your plant was recognized on any level as many people leave the shows with no recognition at all.
Just my two cents, but you have received some very insightful and, hopefully helpful input from others that understand the process much more than me. Again, you have nothing to be ashamed of as your plant is a knock-out! And Thank you GoodGolly - your explanation is well said and clears up somethings that I was a little foggy about as well!
Steve

[NYCorchidman]

The flower that got the 1st place is weird as you mentioned.

I like you purpurata, especially the color of it.
The backrolling isn't bad on the dorsal but the petals are swept backward too much and pointing downward too much.

With that said, I too am not a big fan of "judging" thing.
I like whatever I find attractive. Period!