Naming a Hybrid?

[goodgollymissmolly]

"..Hybrids may only be registered by the person who first flowered the plant, but that need not be the person who actually made the cross."

This a true statement for most genera. It's true because in most cases individual cultivars are individually registered,e.g. in daylilys or hosta each seedling out of a pod is registered as an individual cultivar and only the person owning it, picturing the bloom (required), and applying for registration can be the registrant. Unfortunately Ray frequently states facts he doesn't thoroughly understand. His web site is not the source of the rules.

It is not strictly the way things work in orchids. This is tedious and I apologize for that, but stay with me a second. In orchids we register greges (groups of seedlings from the same cross and the reverse of that cross for all the same crosses made in history). So a cross (or its reverse) are registered one time only. ALL seedlings and subsequent crosses of the same parents are considered the same. That means that potentially thousands or even millions of cultivars have the same grex name. That's why the judging system has to assign a cultivar (clonal) name.

Second issue....in the case of a primary cross registration requires a picture so the first person blooming a seedling and taking its picture can be the registrant. BUT..since many other people also own seedlings identified by the same grex name any of them could picture their flower and get to the registrar first. Just as you stated the registrant needs permission of the originator (assuming he can be identified and there are requirements the originator must adhere to, see posts above). But you can easily see that in hosta only one person has possession of the cultivar to be registered. In orchids many people have (or could have) possession of seedlings from the grex to be registered so it could and does become a race to get in an application.

The situation is even worse for complex orchid hybrids because a picture is not a requirement, though it is allowed. Theoretically someone with a big enough computer and a misguided sense of humor could identify every possible complex cross and register every one of them without ever actually pollinating a single plant. The cost is prohibitive and there is nothing to be gained, but some people have time on their hands and love to muck up things. Only adherence to the honor system prevents that from happening.

So your statement from Ray's web site is correct, but incomplete. In the orchid case their are many possible "registrants" not a single one. Thus we have a race to the finish possible.

This system is not perfect and totally depends on the honor system. I have long thought that orchids should change to the individual cultivar registration system that other plants use. The complexities are great because we are dealing with over 2000 genera and maybe 30,000 species and maybe a quarter million registered hybrids. No other plant system comes close to that problem number. However, today's computers can handle the data, but the IRA (RHS) for orchids clearly considers the complexity unaffordable and they might well be right in that assessment. It does lead to problems however.

[camille1585]

I personally don't see anything wrong with Ray's info. It doesn't aim to give you all of the nitty gritty details, but only give you the general details of how to proceed with registration, explaining the items as indicated on the form that he links to. So no, it's not complete, but I don't think he intended to be. Easy enough to go to the RHS site to get the finer details.

I agree that anyone who has bloomed the unnamed hybrid can register. Ï guess it's not so much 'first person that blooms it can register it' but rather 'first first that blooms it and also bothers to apply for registration'


So I don't think it's right for you to say Ray gives facts that he doesn't fully understand. Ray does an amazing job providing tons of great info, and ok, he may make some mistakes here or there, but certainly not 'frequently' like you say he does. In and outs of naming may not be his domain, but many other topics in the free info are his speciality.

[goodgollymissmolly]

You are not dragging me into a fight with you about Ray or a fight with Ray. That is not the subject of this thread. I made a simple and true comment that is obviously correct to anybody that pays attention. It was not a disparaging comment and was not intended as one.

[camille1585]

Relax, I wasn't criticizing your information, which I do find quite good. Just pointing out the fact that you are a bit quick to judge Ray.

[Rowangreen]

Catleya17 have you got a picture of the flower yet? *G*

Sounds like you are quite happy giving your name as a clone name. But... if you do win an award you need to contact the originator about a grex name. Think that covers it!

Interesting information from everyone. Thanks. Very tempted to cheat and register Paph wilheminii X venestum as Veiny Willi. Currently unregistered and my plants are probably years from flowering!

[Cattleya17]

Well I never really had the intention of actually naming it. I was throwing the idea around and I wanted to know how you would do it and how the process works. I spoke with Peter and I asked him what he would be naming it. He told me that he is not naming them because they are not his plants to name. The plants came from his supplier in Taiwan they have bloomed this cross before Peter purchased the seedlings that did not bloom and had a chance to grow longer in lower light.
Therefore even if I wanted to name it I personally wouldn't feel right about it. So it will be raspberry jam in my books but not officially anywhere else.

To answer your question about the pics I took some because Peter wanted to see the flower as well he said it has great color too! But the pictures are not as nice as I would have liked. So I will be taking pictures again this afternoon with proper lighting so the flower looks its best....... Amateur photographer syndrome... I'm anal about my shots lol!!! I should be posting pics tonight. If you want to see the one I took for Peter it's on his Fb page and ill post it here so here is my "raspberry Jam"


The column is blurry and the sepals are super shiny but there you go. Better pics coming in a new thread!!!

[camille1585]

Very nice!! I would still give it 'raspberry jam' as a cultivar name, it sure deserves it!

[Ray]

My info was taken from the RHS website a long time ago.

I basically think that GoodGolly is right. Logically, if the originator refuses, he apparently has intention to register it himself. If he doesn't do so in time, too bad.

To withhold it otherwise is just selfish and mean.

[Rowangreen]

Wow, great flower and a very suitable clone name for it!

[peterlin]

Hi All,

Sam, this hybrid is made by Leader Orchids, Mr Yang, short for LD Orchids. Many times for non-English speaking countries, the originator had to pay someone else to file an application for them. It's not simple but can be done for a service fee.

I do hope that he picked a good name for this hybrid Phal gigantea x LD's Bear Queen since I plan to use it for breeding. Mr Yang likes to drink beer. He intended to name his hybrid as LD's Beer Queen. But in the process the name ended up being Bear instead of Beer. There is also LD's Bear King. I asked him about this because I was trying to find a connection between Bear and orchid flowers.

There are cases where hybridizers are credited as originators, but wasn't recorded. Remember applications are processed by humans and mistakes can be made. Once plants are awarded, confirmation letters are sent. It's up to the applicants to check. In cases where applicants are not the hybridizers, mistakes such as spelling or omission of originators may not be caught in time to get corrected. Also remember in earlier day registrations are done by mail, not email.

I appreciate Taiwanese breeders making effort to name their plants using words with meaing. It's not easy for them as it is for us who speak English. Breeder in Malaysia named their plants after people and these names can be difficult to remember. For example Phal Mok Choi Yew (gigantea x violacea). I remembered this primary but I am lost when it comes to modern complex hybrid. For example, I have yet to remember Phal violacea x Dragon Tree Eagle. I made this cross too but someone has already bloomed and registered it. If only I can carry Orchidwiz with me on my iPad.

Peter Lin