Naming a Hybrid?

[goodgollymissmolly]

I'm totally confused as to your position. I asked for permission to register a hybrid and was granted that permission immediately. I credited the hybridizer as originator and me as registrant and nominant. The award gave me the incentive to get it done, but played no part in the process. RHS never knew about the award.

I registered another hybrid that was originated by someone who refused to reply to requests for information about his intention to register the cross. Consequently I registered it with a note that I could not get the hybridizer to respond.

Most of the time these people have no intent to register the GREX so they don't care.

It's true that the first person to bloom a cross has the upper hand in becoming the registrant and nominant. They can never be the originator (unless of course they were).

It really isn't relevant that you find it "utterly absurd". It is what it is and always has been.

If you make a cross and want to be assured of being the registrant, all you have to do is keep all the seedlings in your possession until you register the GREX. It's simple.

[FairyInTheFlowers]

My understanding is that a grex needs to be registered to officially become awarded, which is why I can see you wanting to register the one you got awarded. I also know that a grex must be registered to register it as a parent in a grex you have made with it. If you contacted the breeder and received no reply whatsoever, then I agree that you would have rights to register. However, if someone contacted me about registering a grex that they have not bred with nor received an award on, a reply as simple as, "We'll be getting around to it." should be sufficient enough to consider it that you have made contact and have no rights to register.

[orchidsarefun]

Originally Posted by TheBlazingAugust

My understanding is that a grex needs to be registered to officially become awarded, which is why I can see you wanting to register the one you got awarded. I also know that a grex must be registered to register it as a parent in a grex you have made with it. If you contacted the breeder and received no reply whatsoever, then I agree that you would have rights to register. However, if someone contacted me about registering a grex that they have not bred with nor received an award on, a reply as simple as, "We'll be getting around to it." should be sufficient enough to consider it that you have made contact and have no rights to register.

I think the key is that no matter what the breeder does, he should ALWAYS be credited as the originator of the grex at RHS. In fact I have seen a couple where Peter has credited the breeder as originator, while he is credited as the registrant. This doesn't mean that you don't need to go through the process of contacting the breeder.
As for the original question - again I advise Catt17 to contact Peter. Who knows , maybe you do get to name the grex !

[goodgollymissmolly]

Cody, let's get a little more technicals about an originators rights. If an originator is asked for permission
by an applicant to register a hybrid grex and does not respond within a reasonable time, the applicant can proceed with the process.

If the originator responds by refusing permission he must do so in writing. His right to refuse the applicant lapses 9 months later and the applicant can proceed. This allows the originator 9 months to take registration action in his own name as registrant.

Still your best protection if you wish to be certain about registering a cross you originated is to maintain possession of all the seedlings until the registration is complete. The risk of waiting of course is that someone else might have done the same cross and registers the grex before you do. In that case, first guy to the registrar wins.

[camille1585]

Originally Posted by goodgollymissmolly

It's simple and if the originator refuses permission for you to register the hybrid, you can indicate that you tried to get permission and were refused and complete the process without the permission.

But that's just ridiculous. If the originator says no, then no should mean no! I can't imagine RHS overriding the originator's decision, unless the applicant lies and simply says "I couldn't track him down".

That's how I understood it anyway, that the only was to register without prior permission is if you show that you unfruitfully tried to contact the originator. Tricky business all of this....

[goodgollymissmolly]

What I wrote you is straight out the rules (ICNCP). It is not my opinion. There are enough disputes about misguided, poorly thought out, gut feelings on the internet without arguing about what written rules say.

Think about it like this..suppose the guy who crossed the parents could refuse to register the cross and refuse you permission to do so...permanently. What would you do if you needed (or wanted) it registered? Obviously you would say you pollinated the cross and you want to register it as the originator. There is no way the actual originator can prove it is the seedling he originated rather than one you did yourself. So the rules allow the originator some leeway to register. After that any owner can. Makes sense to me. There is no financial benefit of being an "originator". It offers no form of exclusivity. It's purely personal pride or need (like to complete an award process).

So who is served by allowing someone to make a cross and refuse registration? No one since any other person can make the same cross or just say they originated it completely separately from the refuser.

This is exactly why some high volume plant producers are refusing to even identify the parents of a cross. Those cultivars will never be popular in the hobby trade where people want to know what they own, but in the decorative flower market a secret cross can prevent competitors from repeating a successful cross. Registration would let the cat out of the bag. I don't like the trend, but the alternative is to allow someone to reserve a cross and never allow it to be registered. That's a pretty ridiculous result too.

This exact situation is arising now in AOS judging. A person brings a plant to judging and is not able to identify either a grex name or the parentage of the cultivar. A few judges argue (wrongfully imho) that they should be allowed to award the cultivar without the system ever being able to identify the parents since we are judging the flower, not the cross data. The awarded cultivar would then only be known in the permanent record by its cultivar epithet...no grex name and no parents ever since it's unknown.

That would destroy the system in my opinion and most judges concur, but it never ceases to amaze me how many opinions the world can generate.

In my view, no game is unfair as long as the rules are written, available to all, and enforced equally for all players. Those players who choose not to know the rules will find themselves at a disadvantage. Some people may choose just not to play because they object to the rules. That's OK too.

[camille1585]

So basically, if the originator tells me no, I can still register, even if he said no because he wants to register it himself?? Makes you wonder why RHS makes you ask for the originator's permission in the first place, if you can simply ignore it! That's just not right.

[goodgollymissmolly]

Read it! The originator has 9 months from his first written refusal to register it.

That in no way prohibits someone else from registering the same cross that they actually did or falsely claimed to have done themselves in the interim. There is no right of first pollination, just first to the registrar. There is no other way to do it.

You are letting some false moral opinion of fairness pollute the way things actually work. There is no other way for the system to function unless you want to go to the patent method where bound lab notebooks of researchers become evidence in a court as to the inventor. Even then there are issues of continuous pursuit of the development of invention raised. Who the heck is going to police that (and pay for it)?

[RJSquirrel]

from FirstRays info database..

...Hybrids may only be registered by the person who first flowered the plant, but that need not be the person who actually made the cross. If you did make the cross, great. If you did not, you must state the name and address of the originator, and get permission to name the cross from that individual, unless he has passed away or has not responded to written requests for more than three months. (If you wish to register a mature plant you acquired, use the date that it first bloomed for you.)

It is also possible to register a cross if the originator is unknown, and you'll have to explain your efforts to determine the originator. A customer of mine registered a hybrid obtained from me by getting the name of my source of that plant, and inquiring with that grower. They, unfortunately, did not know the source, and stating that "the source was unsuccessfully researched through two previous generations of ownership" was sufficient.

Now wasnt that easy

[orchidsarefun]

As a novice breeder, I am essentially only concerned about the parents being registered and the originators of these grexes. And that there is a solution to overcoming any problems with non-registration of the parents.

I use the originator names for research purposes in OrchidWiz.
In most cases the registrant and the originator are the same, but as I said before, there are differences. But in the scheme of things, who cares ?

As far as I am aware, the breeder ( if known ) always gets credit as the originator even if he doesn't personally register the cross. As a result I really don't see what the problem is. The system/bureaucracy works.