Complexity of Dendrobium Phal. type Breeding?

[Wrebbitrocks]

Hands down, my favourite of all the genera are the Dendrobium alliance in the Phalaenopsis types. They put out large showy flowers in return for the amount of effort they require. They are also upright and don't take much lateral room as they like small pots, last long, and they just happen to be carefree for me.

What came to my attention is that they are so hard to find and are expensive compared to the dime store phals. The color range is narrow too. I've been longing to find a nice clear solid yellow or at most some white with a full round form. All I find are greenish yellow at best and the nice yellow ones have very thin segments and aren't very showy and all with a dark lip. The flowers of their finicky cousins, however, like chrysotoxum, aggregatum, fimbriatum, densiflorum, harveyanum, and hancockii to name a few are amazing.

The question I have is, why is the breeding with these so hard unlike the extreme ease of crossing between the species of other genera/families like cattleyas, phals, and oncidiums etc. why are they so hard to come by and if it's at all possible to do crosses between species?

What would be the challenges to producing a clear, solid yellow flower with a nice round/full form? I was thinking maybe a white phal type dendrobium or at least a yellow one and cross it with something like chrysotoxum which has the most resmblance to a phal type because of the canes and the arching spikes of flowers from the tips instead of individual stems from the canes themselves. Is it possible at all? What would be the obstacles and what would prevent me, genetically, from producing this cross? And, what would be the easiest cross, if it exists, to produce said bloom.

Thanks to all of you who know how to answer this.

[glengary54]

Omar - I'm no Dendrobium expert, but I do know that some of the hybridizing you suggest has already been done (Dendrobium Tirta Asri (Dendrobium phalaenopsis X Dendrobium fimbriatum),
Dendrobium Korat (Dendrobium phalaenopsis X Dendrobium chrysotoxum), Dendrobium Leo (Dendrobium phalaenopsis X Dendrobium brymerianum) ).

I can only assume that it may be an issue of genetics, ie Den phalaenopsis may be dominant for shape and form, while say fimbriatum, although yellow, may be recessive for color. I can tell you this, it is not from lack of trying that what you desire has not be achieved yet. Hybridizers are always looking to create the next new, bigger, better, more interesting or bizarre cross to bring to market.

[Ray]

I think the issue is economics, not genetics.

Phalaenopsis are fast-growing, bloom when relatively young, and hold their flowers for a lot longer than most other genera. Hence, they are great for "decoration", and make a great mass-market product.

Dendrobiums take longer to mature, drop leaves easier, and don't hold their blossoms for as long, leaving a bunch of tall canes - not so decorative, so they tend to be purchased by "collectors" not "decorators"...a smaller market.

You might try contacting Roy Tokunaga (the "R" of H&R), as I'm pretty sure he'll be a far better source of info (and plants!).

[Wrebbitrocks]

gee thanks alot! this has been a great help. Il be on the lookout for some of these hybrids

[sailortom2]

i know it isn't a phal type but there is some yellow nobile types

[PaphMadMan]

Originally Posted by glengary54

Omar - I'm no Dendrobium expert, but I do know that some of the hybridizing you suggest has already been done (Dendrobium Tirta Asri (Dendrobium phalaenopsis X Dendrobium fimbriatum),
Dendrobium Korat (Dendrobium phalaenopsis X Dendrobium chrysotoxum), Dendrobium Leo (Dendrobium phalaenopsis X Dendrobium brymerianum) ).

I can only assume that it may be an issue of genetics, ie Den phalaenopsis may be dominant for shape and form, while say fimbriatum, although yellow, may be recessive for color. I can tell you this, it is not from lack of trying that what you desire has not be achieved yet. Hybridizers are always looking to create the next new, bigger, better, more interesting or bizarre cross to bring to market.

None of those 3 hybrids have been registered as a parent even though they have been around for 25+ years. I can only assume the issue in those cases is almost complete sterility. If further crosses were possible they would have been made, and it would only take another generation or 2 to get the yellow/orange colors into flowers with Den phal type appearance, no matter what the genetics involved. The big profit with Den phal types is on the cut-flower market, and there is plenty of economic incentive to broaden the color palette. I'm sure a lot of effort has gone into it. If it was easy it would have happened by now.

Dendrobium is an extremely diverse genus and the various sections of Dendrobium may just not be as closely related and genetically compatible as the genera in Laeliinae or Oncidiinae.

[msaar]

A couple of problems:
The only colors you have to work with in the Phalaenanthe section are white and shades of purple.
The only other section that readily hybridizes with Phalaenanthe is Spatulata ("antelope horn"). There are yellowish colors here, but the problem is trying to maintain color intensity while restoring the full form of the phalaenopsis-type flower. The use of antelope-horn types immediately reduces petal width.

[Wrebbitrocks]

i guess a google search didnt help much either :/ i have seen a few that come quite close, though. den. beenana 'masterpiece' has been on my wishlist because the flowers are a nice yellow with negligible green on it. the others are beenana sweet Rynco Orchids - Orchid suppliers, Growers, Importers, Cut flower suppliers, Orchid plant care - Den. Beenana Sweet (Powered by CubeCart) and (yellow butterfly x beenana) Rynco Orchids - Orchid suppliers, Growers, Importers, Cut flower suppliers, Orchid plant care - Dendrobium Yellow butter fly x Beenana (Powered by CubeCart)
that ive seen at this place called rynchoorchids but they seem to be overseas and i dont think theyre available to me yet if anyone is placing an order with them, tell me

[Suresh Kalyanpur]

Omar, I am familiar with Rynco Orchids and have bought from them on several occasions. They are based in Trivandrum which is the southern most tip of the Indian sub-continent. However I must tell you that their plants are almost always imports from Thailand and/or Malaysia.
Suresh

[Wrebbitrocks]

Originally Posted by Suresh Kalyanpur

Omar, I am familiar with Rynco Orchids and have bought from them on several occasions. They are based in Trivandrum which is the southern most tip of the Indian sub-continent. However I must tell you that their plants are almost always imports from Thailand and/or Malaysia.
Suresh

you're lucky. their site doesnt allow me to buy yet. it says it hasnt been activated yet but its been that way for a year now and it doesnt seem like its going to change. how have you done business with them? also, what is the average cost per dendrobium plants? thanks