Superthrive & PH crash

[Masdyman]

Hi Folks , i have been using superthrive but notice it dramatically lowers the PH to approx 5-5.5 .
I add it to RO /feed and adjust PH to 6.2 ,anyone else notice this ? .

As i mix up 120 ltrs of ro/feed i add the superthrive to smaller quantity's in a watering can .
I won't be using superthrive once i have used it up ,even though i love the smell of it
I will stick with KLN as it seems more cost effective.
Cheers

[orchidsamore]

I think you would have an eye opening event to read the article in this months Orchid Magazine (American Orchid Society mag) on growing Phals in Sphag at PH 4-4.5.

The biggest advantage of low PH is that Phythion fungus can not grow at this PH, therefor, no root rot.

I read a lot of on-line posts and do not know where the idea of harm at low PH arises.

Here in Florida we commercial growers spend thousands of dollars to add citric acid to our watering to lower the PH. The main reason is that plants can not absorb micro nutrients in PH over about 7.2.

Back to your question, the superthrive and KLN are both very weak dilutions of IBA rooting hormone. The KLN literature I found on the web said the dilution was 1 million to one.

The small quantities of chemical you are adding to the water could not affect the PH significantly. In my pool it takes a gallon of muriatic acid in 12,000 gallons to lower the Ph from 7.8 to 6.8.

I think you should look at your potting medium as it may be breaking down badly.

[goodgollymissmolly]

Jerry is correct. The small amount of Superthrive that you add would have no impact on pH.

Rain water or RO water should be about 5.5 to 6.2pH depending on how much carbon dioxide it has dissolved. It will get to 5.5 eventually but may be closeerr to 6 if used freshly.

Fertilizers intended for tap water typically reduce pH because tap water typically contains calcium and magnesium carbonates that raise pH to 7-8. In order to utilize all nutrients plants should be watered at 5.5 +/- 0.5 pH. If you use RO or rain you need to use a fertilizer intended for those waters that does not lower pH.

He is also correct in that 4.5 won't hurt your plants but some nutrients become unavailable at that pH.

I question your conclusion that KLM is more cost effective than Superthrive (I use neither so I have no bias towards either). Typically you use 2 drops of ST per gallon and a teaspoon to 2 teaspoons of KLN. A teaspoon is approximately 20 drops so it's 2 drops of ST to 40 drops of KLN. KLN would need to be 1/20th the cost of ST to be equal in cost per usage.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by goodgollymissmolly

I question your conclusion that KLM is more cost effective than Superthrive (I use neither so I have no bias towards either). Typically you use 2 drops of ST per gallon and a teaspoon to 2 teaspoons of KLN. A teaspoon is approximately 20 drops so it's 2 drops of ST to 40 drops of KLN. KLN would need to be 1/20th the cost of ST to be equal in cost per usage.

I don't know where you're getting that K-L-N application rate, but I DO know that if you use it (or any rooting hormone) at that rate regularly for extended periods, you will likely see deformation in phalaenopsis flowers - I have seen that first-hand. (In standard measures, by the way, a teaspoon is 76 drops.)

The K-L-N label and literature only give recommendations for one-time treatments at transplantation or for rooting cuttings, and state nothing about regular use. K-L-N has double the IBA that SuperThrive contains, AND has NAA as well, so it seems logical that one- or two drops per gallon is appropriate for it, just like ST.

[Masdyman]

The superthrive IS having a impact on ph @ the dilution rate of 1ml per gallon from ph 7 to 4.4 ph .
At few drops(i do 3)per gallon it dropped to 5.5 ph .
So how does this impact, in relation to the feed if the PH is not adjusted cannot be good if used regular .

[orchidsamore]

If you are so concerned at the effect of IBA rooting hormone switch to gibberelic acid in the product Essentials.

It is made from sea weed so it is totally organic. Gibberelic acid is water soluble whereas IBA is not soluble in water. The commercial product in Essentials is 10,000 times stronger than SuperThrive or KLN and overdosing has no harmful effects. I have used it by mistake at full strength (forgot the 10 gallons of water before I started spraying) without any damage to my orchids. That was 1 million times stronger than KLN or SuperThrive.

I like applying it with worm tea as the microbes in the worm liquid move into the plant and roots and seem to bring the hormones with them for faster use by the Orchid.

[goodgollymissmolly]

"I don't know where you're getting that K-L-N application rate.."

Right off the freakin' label, Ray. It lists 1-2 and 3 (1 tablespoon) teaspoons for various uses. No where is it recommended that less than that be used.

You're correct that 20 drops is not 1 teaspoon. 20 drops (of water) is 1 milliliter. There are 4.93 ml per teaspoon and that makes 98 drops per teaspoon. That makes the analysis 5 times worse than I stated. Instead of KLN needing to be 1/20 the cost of superthrive it needs to be 1/49 the cost to be equal.

pH...I took a pH meter properly calibrated at 7.0 and at 4.01. I then took a gallon of aged rain water from my greenhouse storage tank and measured the pH at 5.0. I added 3 drops of superthrive and got a pH of 4.9. I then added additional ST to bring the total to 1 ml and the pH was 4.8.

[Brooke]

Ray I've been using SuperThrive since '01 on phals and never have deformed flowers - nor on any other orchid I grow. I use it at a rate of 4-6 drops per gallon of rain/RO water. I also used it in my city water prior to the addition of the pure.

At all times I grow between 175-200 phals, potted and mounted, with two different potting media. You would think growing that many phals at all times would turn up a deformed bloom on occasion.

I would look to another problem for deformed flowers.

Brooke

[Royal]

Pure water has no pH buffering minerals so even small amounts of a weak acid (or base) can cause a pronounced change in pH. You could use a different water source and ST wouldn't have that big of an effect - but I'm sure you'd rather stick to RO and just keep adjusting it.

[Izzie]

Originally Posted by brooke

Ray I've been using SuperThrive since '01 on phals and never have deformed flowers - nor on any other orchid I grow. I use it at a rate of 4-6 drops per gallon of rain/RO water. I also used it in my city water prior to the addition of the pure.

At all times I grow between 175-200 phals, potted and mounted, with two different potting media. You would think growing that many phals at all times would turn up a deformed bloom on occasion.

I would look to another problem for deformed flowers.

Brooke

It's certainly possible that there could be anomalies.

However, Ray has done controlled experiments to get these results.
And I, and several other members, have deformed flowers after over-application of ST.

You might be doing just enough to keep that from happening- but there are always exceptions. It's good to hear that someone has not had a problem, in any case. It makes me more confident in keeping with just the low dose every now and then.