Species Orchids?

[JennS]

Originally Posted by Jorch

The three you listed are all species. FYI, if you are referring to a species, the species name should be in lower case, such as Neofinetia falcata, Phal. violacea, etc.

Internet Orchid Species Photo Encyclopedia is a site that I recommend for the list of species.

So, on this site they only list species? Does that mean Den. Anosum (superbum) is one? I found this site before, but didn't know if it listed only species. And, what about Den. unicum? Thanks everyone again!

[Ross]

D. anosmun is, in fact a species.

[whygreenberg]

I can give a quick answer to this last one...You are correct, IOSPE only lists species. Den. anosmum and Den. unicum are indeed both species.

(Sorry for muddling your thread up with philosophical drivel!)

[Royal]

Originally Posted by JennS

Yikes...much more information then I can process....powering down my brain...

Ok, well I think I am seeing the light? Maybe?

So...all that being said the Phal. violaceae has the word Borneo written behind it in single quotes. Does that mean it has been bred with itself or someother type of Phal? Or some other type of Phal. violaceae.

I may be over simplifying this, but if a orchid, say the Neo. falcata was bred with itself, then how could that be a hybrid? Wouldn't it still be a regular Neo. falcata because don't they cross pollinate in nature like that? I have read before, but never confirmed that you cannot pollinate an orchid with itself. Or maybe that was you cannot pollinate the same flower with it's own pollen? Now I confused myself. ANy help here?

Yes, you can self pollinate. No, it would not be a hybrid. But each of the seedlings are like children, slightly genetically different from one another.

Your example is a confusing one though. I think Phal violaceae var. Borneo has been designated as a distinct species - Phal bellina.

Single quotes denote a cultivar. These are usually awarded plants. Earning an award entitles the grower to assign a name in single quotes. These award quality plants are sometimes cloned to ensure every plant is an exact copy. If you self pollinated it, the results would not be genetically identical. If you buy a plant with a cultivar name, it should be exactly like every other one in the world. (Ex: Bc Binosa 'Wabash Valley')

Note that the Binosa is capitalized. This tips you off that it is a hybrid (so does the Bc). The 'Wabash Valley' just means that it's an exact clone of the original plant. If you self pollinated it the result would be Bc Binosa 'Wabash Valley' x self. To use your example: Phal violaceae var. borneo x self (or now, Phal bellina x self)

Hope that doesn't make things muddier.

[JennS]

I love philisophical drivel, so no problem here! I believe we should all contribute whatever we think relevant to a thread. I don't really believe in the thread hijacking thing, so you are fine by me Greenberg!

Royal, so basically the Phal. viloaceae 'Borneo' was an awarded plant that someone added the 'Borneo' onto the end to keep it seperate from other Phal. violaceaes? But to be even more clear, the correct name would be Phal. bellina? So, I should call it a Phal. bellina and not a violaceae? Could you still consider it a voilaceae? If so, where is the difference? Just that the 'borneo' was from an awarded plant? Is that right? or even close? Thanks!

[Brooke]

Poor JennS, it is confusing but you will get "it" soon. One day the light bulb goes off and you understand - been there, done that.

To confuse you more, sorry, if your phal is violacea var. Borneo, the REAL name is now Phal bellina.

You can pollinate the bloom with it's own pollen - it is called selfing. The tag would read Phal. violacea x self. Most selfings would give you the same plant, almost. Since the plant would be seed grown, there is always a miniscule chance a recessive gene can kick in and give you something slightly different. It is why you see some variation in seedlings, unlike mericlones.

Now are you really confused?

Brooke

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by JennS

Royal, so basically the Phal. viloaceae 'Borneo' was an awarded plant that someone added the 'Borneo' onto the end to keep it seperate from other Phal. violaceaes? But to be even more clear, the correct name would be Phal. bellina? So, I should call it a Phal. bellina and not a violaceae? Could you still consider it a voilaceae? If so, where is the difference? Just that the 'borneo' was from an awarded plant? Is that right? or even close? Thanks!

The can of worms just keeps opening.
Note that RoyalOrchids wrote Phal violacea var. borneo not Phal violacea 'Borneo'. Where the name after the species or hybrid name is in quotation marks it refers to a specific clone/cultivar of that plant, ie someone gave the plant another name so that it and its divisions could be distinguished from other plants of the same species/hybrid. Below the level of species, occasionally populations of plants within a species show stable differences to the normal 'type' species and are further divided into classes, such as subspecies, varieties and forms/forma (denoted by ssp., var. and f. respectively between the species name and the sub-specific class name, which is also not capitalised. In the case of Phal violacea var. borneo, someone decided that it was sufficiently different from the normal Phal violacea that it should be considered a distinct variety hence the var. borneo. I don't grow Phals so surely someone else can explain how it differs from the type. The next thing you need to know is that the rules for defining a species, subspecies and a variety are a little vague and taxonomists often disagree as to whether two given plants are varieties of the same species or two different species.* Presumably someone decided Phal violacea var. borneo was sufficiently different from the normal Phal violacea that is deserved to be considered a different species so they called it Phal bellina.

Andrew

* For those confused about the process by which as variety is changed into a speces it goes a little like this:
Taxonomist 1

species A var. B

Taxonomist 2

species B

Taxonomist 1

species A var. B





species B

Horticulturalists


Kew


Taxonomist 2


Horticulturalists


Kew
:iagree:

Horticulturalists

[Royal]

Brooke said it much better. Jenn, you got the concept. The only thing I think I wasn't clear on is that I think Borneo is a variation, not a cultivar. So, it would just be part of the specific epithet (violaceae var. borneo). This is why it is good to get this strait. You can gleam a lot of info just from the tag - if only people would label things correclty! You are also right, I think, that it would just be Phal bellina. It is very closely related, but those wacky taxonomists decided it was different enough to be its own species.

It depends on if you are a lumper or a splitter. So which are you?

[Royal]

Ha! That cracks me up, Andrew! You said it better too.

[Mirranova]

Hi, it is Phal. bellina. The var. borneo comes from where it was first discovered. It was originally thought to be violacea only another color form, when it was studied more closely, it was found to have enough defining characteristics to have it's own name (bigger leaves, bigger inflorescence, reluctant breeder). Thus the name P. bellina. Now I am going on memory, and might not be entirely correct, but I know that is the gist of it.

If you self a plant say Neofinetia falcata x self, the tag should read Neofinetia falcata x self, but the plant itself is a Neofinetia falcata. Neofinetia crossed with another plant like Ascofinetia ampullaceum is a hybrid Ascofinetia Cherry Blossom.