"Outcross" breeding question

[katsucats]

Seems like an old thread, but... Technically, I would like to assume sib means an incross, as in the seedlings have the same grandparents, but in asking around I've found that it's often just shorthand for when a named variety (with clonal name) is crossed to another anonymous one of the same species. For example, it might be awkwardly long to write "Cattleya amethystoglossa coerulea 'Atalaia' x amethystoglossa".

Specifically, when I ask vendors whether something like Cattleya maxima 'Elegance' x sib actually has parents that come from the same batch, therefore presumably have similar qualities, they usually admit that they don't actually know. Sometimes the listings are incredulous. If a clone was registered in 1980, it would be highly unlikely that someone is able to incross it with an actual sibling, unless there are multiple clones known to be from the same flasks, but then it might be more reasonable to just list both names.

[Louis_W]

Ya I wouldn't expect to see that with old clones. I also agree that there are plenty of known sibling cultivars but it's more helpful to list both since they have their own stories and awards.

I view it as a breeder of new lines trying to get some new results. I would be surprised if reputable breeders lost track of details like that.

The plant I brought up (x outcross) I feel is a breeders plant. You buy it because I has enough of a healthy genome to maintain vigor but you also know you can self it and end up with a few coerulea plants which will hopefully be improvements. For a guy like me it who doesn't breed it's interesting to have that glimpse into the genome of the plant but at the end of the day it's just a tipo.

[Fairorchids]

While sibling has a specific meaning in mammals, the meaning in horticulture has weakened.
There it simply means 'same species/cross', whether it came from the same seed pod or not.

Anybody using 2 awarded, or otherwise recognized cultivars, will normally identify both instead of using the shorthand 'sib'.

[Louis_W]

Originally Posted by Fairorchids

simply means 'same species/cross', whether it came from the same seed pod or not.
.

Really? It doesn't need to come from the exact same parents? I wouldn't expect it to have to be from the same pod, but at least the same parents.

If that's the case then what meaning does "outcross" have at all? Every Sib cross is an outcross...

[Jmoney]

I take a "sib" cross to mean the parent cultivars are related, even if they are not necessarily from the same seed pod. (although that is what true sibling means to me, but I'm not in charge evidently).

I take an "outcross" to signify unrelated parent cultivars, at least not from similar breeding lines. so I would expect more variability in this case. Of course that doesn't mean others share my opinion...

[estación seca]

My observation is both terms are used for different meanings by different people. In other words they are effectively undefined. If it matters to me I need to ask.

It seems obvious sib should refer to pod mates but it clearly is not used for this most of the time. It's usually used for "any member of the grex that is a different clone." Outcross should mean a cross between two different breeding lines but it's often used to mean the same as sib.

[Louis_W]

Even reputable breeders like Fred Clark or the Fischers? It seems like they would only be shooting themselves in the foot to not keep close track of things like that. I don't know what you can be sure of with old cultivars, but breeders at the cutting edge must surely use the words properly right??

As a note, I think sibs could be from any pod resulting from a cross between the same two parents, even if it's reciprocal. That's how I think of it anyways. As if that matters... haha

[Roberta]

Originally Posted by Louis_W

Even reputable breeders like Fred Clark or the Fischers? It seems like they would only be shooting themselves in the foot to not keep close track of things like that. I don't know what you can be sure of with old cultivars, but breeders at the cutting edge must surely use the words properly right??

As a note, I think sibs could be from any pod resulting from a cross between the same two parents, even if it's reciprocal. That's how I think of it anyways. As if that matters... haha

The hybridizers know, have extensive records and know the pedigrees of their breeding stock, and likely will tell you the details if you ask. They can't write a book on a plant tag...Most people, unless they are planning on breeding with the plant, don't find those details of interest. So if you do want to get into the weeds, by all means inquire.

[katsucats]

I don't think I recall ever seeing Fred Clark using the word "sib" in his listings. I believe he's more inclined to give the other parents an arbitrary stand-in cultivar name like 'SVO' or 'Dark Lip', which he changes from time to time. For example, sometimes he'll refer to previous releases in his listings as if they're the same plant in the description, but the title (or the title in the pictures page) will have different names. This is actually a common practice though.

It seems some breeders, like Troy Meyers, Marni, maybe Ecuagenera, etc. give a number to any plant of interest, so they will just use this number or ID as stand-in instead of saying sib, though sometimes they also specify sib on top of the ID.

Personally, if I'm buying a flask or a plant that has particular horticultural value, then I expect the vendors to use "sib" correctly. Otherwise, "sib" might as well be any other plant of the same grex, especially if the vendor is one that makes trending crosses for massive import/export, or the vendor is an importer or reseller. Most likely they don't care what the specific genetic line is as long as there's a name that makes the sale. So they'll just use the shortest word "sib" when no such name exists.

Maybe my social skills need work, since I feel like if I get into the weeds, I usually get ignored. So I do a lot of "research" by inferring things between various catalogs instead.

[isurus79]

A quick email would solve this “problem”