Probiotics - which to use, how to expand, how to dose and how to store

[DavTom]

Hi all,

I made a search in the forum and I did not find a thread covering all these topics, so I thought to create one. Apologies if there is already one - please re-direct me there.

I live in the Netherlands and here Quantum orchids is not available. Thanks to some suggestions, in particular from Ray regarding EM-1, I have bought an EM-1 bottle of 1 Liter. This is the url Effektive Mikroorganismen - das Ursprungsprodukt | EMIKO Online Shop

I am a newbie to probiotics, so I have started reading a lot on the Internet. But as we all know, on Internet the truth is always mixed with myths... Based on what I have read so far, I have the following questions:

- Is the EM-1 product I bought a good product? It has an EMRO certificate and GMO declaration. The price is 30 Eur for 1 Liter shipping included
- Is it different from the Quantum product? If so what is the difference? Maybe I can compensate for it by adding something else to it?
- Should I use the recommended dose on the label for orchids (my orchids are all in S/H)? The label says 20ml/liter but does not say anything about the frequency of dosing (e.g., once per month?)
- How long can the bottle be stored and at what temperatures? The label says to store it between 8 and 18 degrees Celsius. The expiration date is 1 year with the bottle closed, once opened it says to consume quickly. What does it mean quickly??
- I have read that the EM-1 ready to use (like the one in the bottle I bought) does have a less effective bacterial concentration with respect to the expanded EM1 (i.e., the one expanded and fermented with molasses). Is it true?
- There are tons of websites and videos showing how to expand it. I could not find two different sources stating the same process or ingredients!
- For instance, why is molasses used instead of simple white sugar? Because the molasses contains required minerals? Well, if this is the only reason I could add those minerals myself and use white sugar that is easier to procure and probably much less expensive
- All the molasses are OK? It seems not, but it is still not clear what exact type of molasses should be used as they likely have an effect on the PH.
- I have read that the expanded EM is ready to use when the fermentation has been completed and this can be monitored via PH reading. When the PH drops around 3.5 the expanded solution is ready to use. Is this strictly true?
- The expanded EM1 should be used within a few weeks from preparation. Is it true? And at what temperature should be stored?
- I have also read that you can not expand EM1 from an expanded solution as otherwise, the concentration of the different bacteria would not be anymore in the correct proportion.

Well...I am sure the more I will keep reading the more issues I will find.

Anybody can help me answer all those issues and maybe more?

Many thanks in advance.

Dav

[Shadeflower]

Hi DavTom,
it sounds like a good product but wow is that expensive.
One 30 euro bottle makes 5 x 10 liter buckets of feed.

The product sounds good but they have made their own version which is like 7 times cheaper and an all in one product. Have a look. I would not spend nearly 40 euros for 5 buckets of feed.

Garten- und Bodenaktivator | Garten | EMIKO Online Shop

To put it in perspective my main fertilizer makes 2000 buckets for that price.

[Dekejis]

Look for a product or two that contains both beneficial bacteria AND also mycorrhyzal fungi species. Both of these work symbiotically with the plant to protect it and boost growth. Mycorrhyzae extend the capacity of the root system, and both the bacteria and the fungus also break down nutrients and feed them to the plant in exchange for this service. They also defend their host plant against pathogens once they are established, making it very difficult for the bad guys to get a foothold.
Keep in mind also that the use of beneficials means that you're not going to want to be using any products that kill bacteria and fungi, such as physan, hydrogen peroxide, etc. Otherwise you're just wasting money. Feeding the plants organic nutrients for the microbes to convert and feed the plant with also helps.

As far as getting the best bang for your buck here, invest in a bucket, an aquarium airpump and airstone(s) and Molasses (you're going to want unsulphered blackstrap molasses, pref organic) and look for a fulvic/humic supplement. (also a small aquarium heater if it gets cool in your house) - these are effectively a one-time investment (keeping in mind that you will have to replace the airstones periodically). I will brew up a "tea" a couple days in advance with these and my beneficials and any organic nutrients I want to feed to my plants. The beneficial bacteria will feed on the sugars in the molasses and the mycorrhyzae feed on the humates.

Save some of the unused tea in the bucket when you choose to feed your plants. Then add more water (unchlorinated), and then add more molasses and humates. Feeding the beneficials in the bucket increases the population and keeps them going, so you can effectively keep that one dose of beneficials multiplying and going indefinitely.

Check your local hydroponic store - they should have all of these items readily available.

[estación seca]

First, I'm not familiar with research on whether these things really work with orchids. I think they work, Ray thinks they work, and a lot of other people think they work, but it's still conjecture until I see some well-run experiments on large subject groups of plants. We know from controlled studies they work with other kinds of plants.

Next, very definitely pay attention to the molasses. Most is sold with sulfur added to prevent bacterial or fungal growth in the container. You don't want sulfured molasses. Remember, a pinch of sulfur in a wine vat is often used to stop the fermentation.

Yes, sugar plus minerals would work as well as molasses. I haven't studied it enough to know which minerals to use.

When brewing a batch to "expand" the product realize the different species of micro-organisms will reproduce at very different rates. The final product will not have the same proportion of micro-organisms as will the product bought on the shelf. The product on the shelf is probably prepared by mixing various amounts of pure single micro-organism cultures into one product in proportion to their concentrations in the monocultures. There is no other way to produce a product with consistent numbers and proportions of multiple micro-organisms.

People serially brew product for very long periods of time, using an aliquot from the previous batch. Some species of micro-organisms are probably absent from batches down the line, due to competition and different rates of growth.

I don't know how long they last. I store my products in the refrigerator.

Finally, using such products is of very minor importance compared to the more important orchid growing factors of proper light, temperature, humidity and watering. These products will not correct for poor growing conditions, though they might make some kinds of disease less likely. A too-cold orchid will not grow much better with probiotics.

[Shadeflower]

good points dana, I was wondering about mycorrhizal fungi myself after I discovered if you use the mycorrhizal fungi for fruit trees on blueberries they are ineffective because blueberries use a different mycorrhizal fungi than fruit trees do. I am trying mycorrhizal fungi and I'm seeing no sideeffecs but no benefits yet either. It's early days but I'm not expecting to see it having any effect because just like blueberries have a different strain of fungi, so do orchids.

Frontiers | How Mycorrhizal Associations Influence Orchid Distribution and Population Dynamics | Plant Science

There is no product that replicates the fungi all the different species of orchids use. They store the fungi in their cells to be able to replicate it and even pass it on to their seeds and it would be great to have a product that could colonise a pot fast but the mycorrhizal fungi for trees is I don't think going to do much on orchids.
But I am curious, I would like to think it does something.

[estación seca]

The idea of using these products is to control pathogenic organisms that are common in horticulture. They're intended to control things like phytophthera rather than promoting growth of different types of plants.

[Grautier]

"Finally, using such products is of very minor importance compared to the more important orchid growing factors of proper light, temperature, humidity and watering. These products will not correct for poor growing conditions, though they might make some kinds of disease less likely. A too-cold orchid will not grow much better with probiotics."

Couldn't have put it better myself.
Just add that 'cold' can be mitigated to some extend with drought, as can poor lightning. But just to the critical point every species has and confiding in spring and summer. Same goes for other parameters. A talented grower can play with them, keeping the rules of the game (plant species) in mind.

Coming from organic agriculture, 'probiotics' only do they work nurturing the microbiota - edaphon - in absence of NPK-soluble fertilizers. The effects on clay-humus-parts as well as root nodules are well studied and known.

The culture of epiphytic orchids in pots is far away from a natural growing amongst mosses, lichens, ferns, algae and all other epiphytes and their roots; there is a essential absence of interaction, not to speak of specific mycelia.

The biggest failure would be overdosing and clogging the velamen structures. The same goes for molasses and sugar. They boost the microbial activity thus accelerating the decomposing of the compost. In a semihydro the waist would be the decomposing bacteria themselves.

There are many astounding parallels in nurturing the soil biota for feeding the plants and feeding human gut microbiota to nurture body and brain.
Even on the level of hormones. In this light, 'mycelia' get yet another important function as transmitting body.

[SouthPark]

Also think of looking after our own bodies. Do we all use probiotics?

Yesterday, I made a mango lassi. I do it the easy way ---- like this.

But ----- I admit, that I just use that probiotic for the mango lassi - because it works nicely for the mix only.

Just like the probiotic used by some people for orchids ------ totally agree --- using in moderation is a good idea - if using it that is. Don't overdo it.

[Ray]

Yes, they work. Can you see what they do? Not necessarily. Over time, one may notice the absence of rots, but the only directly-observable outcomes I'm aware of are the increased survival of ex-flask seedlings, and possibly the stopping of an existing disease (note that I am not saying it stops everything).

[DavTom]

Originally Posted by Shadeflower

Hi DavTom,
it sounds like a good product but wow is that expensive.
One 30 euro bottle makes 5 x 10 liter buckets of feed.

The product sounds good but they have made their own version which is like 7 times cheaper and an all in one product. Have a look. I would not spend nearly 40 euros for 5 buckets of feed.

Garten- und Bodenaktivator | Garten | EMIKO Online Shop

To put it in perspective my main fertilizer makes 2000 buckets for that price.

Thanks SF!

I ran into that product sometime ago while searching for em1, but then I forgot it. I will try it when my current bottle will be empty.

Dav

---------- Post added at 02:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Dekejis

Look for a product or two that contains both beneficial bacteria AND also mycorrhyzal fungi species. Both of these work symbiotically with the plant to protect it and boost growth. Mycorrhyzae extend the capacity of the root system, and both the bacteria and the fungus also break down nutrients and feed them to the plant in exchange for this service. They also defend their host plant against pathogens once they are established, making it very difficult for the bad guys to get a foothold.
Keep in mind also that the use of beneficials means that you're not going to want to be using any products that kill bacteria and fungi, such as physan, hydrogen peroxide, etc. Otherwise you're just wasting money. Feeding the plants organic nutrients for the microbes to convert and feed the plant with also helps.

As far as getting the best bang for your buck here, invest in a bucket, an aquarium airpump and airstone(s) and Molasses (you're going to want unsulphered blackstrap molasses, pref organic) and look for a fulvic/humic supplement. (also a small aquarium heater if it gets cool in your house) - these are effectively a one-time investment (keeping in mind that you will have to replace the airstones periodically). I will brew up a "tea" a couple days in advance with these and my beneficials and any organic nutrients I want to feed to my plants. The beneficial bacteria will feed on the sugars in the molasses and the mycorrhyzae feed on the humates.

Save some of the unused tea in the bucket when you choose to feed your plants. Then add more water (unchlorinated), and then add more molasses and humates. Feeding the beneficials in the bucket increases the population and keeps them going, so you can effectively keep that one dose of beneficials multiplying and going indefinitely.

Check your local hydroponic store - they should have all of these items readily available.

Thanks Dana, tempting...
90% of my fair knowledge of plants comes from my planted aquarium hobby (I call it rather an underwater garden as the plants are for me much more important than the fish). I have all that stuff already avaible at home. Sometime ago i also experimented a lot to inject co2 in the tank from sugar/yeast fermentation, so I know the basics there. If I correctly understand it, you ferment all the stuff in a tank with heater and areator and you periodically "harvest" it to feed it to your plants, right? If so, I have one basic question. Do you wait for the fermentation to complete (i.e., all the sugars are transformed) or you do not care and you harvest the solution even if it still contains some sugar?

Dav

---------- Post added at 02:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:51 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Dekejis

Look for a product or two that contains both beneficial bacteria AND also mycorrhyzal fungi species. Both of these work symbiotically with the plant to protect it and boost growth. Mycorrhyzae extend the capacity of the root system, and both the bacteria and the fungus also break down nutrients and feed them to the plant in exchange for this service. They also defend their host plant against pathogens once they are established, making it very difficult for the bad guys to get a foothold.
Keep in mind also that the use of beneficials means that you're not going to want to be using any products that kill bacteria and fungi, such as physan, hydrogen peroxide, etc. Otherwise you're just wasting money. Feeding the plants organic nutrients for the microbes to convert and feed the plant with also helps.

As far as getting the best bang for your buck here, invest in a bucket, an aquarium airpump and airstone(s) and Molasses (you're going to want unsulphered blackstrap molasses, pref organic) and look for a fulvic/humic supplement. (also a small aquarium heater if it gets cool in your house) - these are effectively a one-time investment (keeping in mind that you will have to replace the airstones periodically). I will brew up a "tea" a couple days in advance with these and my beneficials and any organic nutrients I want to feed to my plants. The beneficial bacteria will feed on the sugars in the molasses and the mycorrhyzae feed on the humates.

Save some of the unused tea in the bucket when you choose to feed your plants. Then add more water (unchlorinated), and then add more molasses and humates. Feeding the beneficials in the bucket increases the population and keeps them going, so you can effectively keep that one dose of beneficials multiplying and going indefinitely.

Check your local hydroponic store - they should have all of these items readily available.

Thanks Dana, tempting...
90% of my fair knowledge of plants comes from my planted aquarium hobby (I call it rather an underwater garden as the plants are for me much more important than the fish). I have all that stuff already avaible at home. Sometime ago i also experimented a lot to inject co2 in the tank from sugar/yeast fermentation, so I know the basics there. If I correctly understand it, you ferment all the stuff in a tank with heater and areator and you periodically "harvest" it to feed it to your plants, right? If so, I have one basic question. Do you wait for the fermentation to complete (i.e., all the sugars are transformed) or you do not care and you harvest the solution even if it still contains some sugar?

Dav