Probiotics - which to use, how to expand, how to dose and how to store

[thefish1337]

Originally Posted by K-Sci

I see the above as a bit of a hand wave.

When I say I want to understand specific mechanics of action, I mean in a more scientific sense. For example, saying predatory insects control sucking and chewing insects isn't enough. I would rather hear that lady bugs and green lacewings control mites, mealy bugs thrips, scale, aphids, and other sucking insects by eating them.

Okay, so you know I'm not opposed to using probiotics because I've been buying them from you. I will probably continue to do so for at least another year. So, why do I use a product when I don't know if it does anything? I continuously strive to optimize most all my growing practices because I enjoy the challenges and like experimenting. As you know I did this with KelpMax getting obvious and dramatic positive results. I also learned that too much KelpMax can have negative effects.

Experimenting with probiotics is a bit more frustrating because I'm not sure what to look for or measure. If Quantum works, I have so few rot problems that I wouldn't be able to tell if it prevents rot.

-Keith

---------- Post added at 02:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 PM ----------


I overdosed a few select plants on KelpMax from mid-summer on last year and saw indisputable results.

Most of the selected plants grew two but more often three new leads when they had previously had produced only one new lead for years. I cn't recall ever having a one-lead sympodial orchid spontaneously grow three new leads. Other orchids produced an additional seasonal growth not normally seen. Almost all the overdosed orchids put out more roots in a few months than I typically see in 2-3 years or more.

At this juncture I would like caution against overdosing orchids with KelpMax other than as an experiment. The very large amounts of new root and top growth overtaxed the plant's biological machinery. Virtually all the plants I overdosed had small but fully mature new growths. That is, the size of the new growth was obviously stunted.

A fuller accounting of both pros and cons can be found here:

Adventures in KelpMax
-Keith

Personally, as a huge advocate of probiotics for orchids Quantum Total never really delivered for me. You will find the same conclusions by Sue Bottom of St. Augustine Orchid Society. In my hands it seemed to be nothing more than a glorified humic acid product. Inconsistent results is a mark of an inferior product for orchid culture IMO -

When it comes to plant growth promoting rhizobacteria, species on the bottle is only part of the story. If you look in the literature the real sauce is in the strain and what it does in addition to the consortium applied. For example, there are many biofungicides (they are not considered PGPR) on the market that use specific strains of Bacillus amyloliquifasciens: Southern Ag's Garden Friendly Fungicide (strain D747 or generic Hydroguard), General Hydroponic's Defguard (Strain F727) or Marrone Biosciences's Stargus (Strain F747). These strains have been studied in the literature for their disease suppressive effects.

If you look at this study of these products by the University of Tennesee you will see that these strains performed differently depending on the disease causing agent on a strain by strain basis.

None of these strains caused a growth promoting effect because that's not what they do. In fact there is literature that Garden Friendly Fungicide may suppress plant growth in some cases- but that may be an acceptable result if you grow in an environment with high disease pressure and your plants would be growing poorly because of that... like trying to grow tomatoes in a hot humid environment where blight is always looming- the bacteria may allow you to get a harvest where you otherwise wouldn't be able to. I think this is a good example for why different "probiotics" might perform differently for different people in different conditions and with different plants.

A lot of these products are innovations of the prototypical "OG" plant probiotic EM-1 by Japanese researcher Dr. Higa which is a combination of phototropic bacteria, lactic acid bacteria, actinomycetes and yeasts.

Inocucor is basically a modern version of EM-1 that has a few more species, selected strains and has Bacillus subtilis, one of the work horse species in the PGPR world. You can amplify it just like EM-1

Quantum Total is a bunch of PGPR Bacillus + Rhodopsudomonas palastrus + bacterially produced humic substances.

The point is, you should try different products because one may work better or worse for you. I'm not ruling out that Quantum Total doesn't work I just think its an under-powered and outdated product for the price in comparison to others on the market based on my own experience and research. YMMV

[Ray]

Originally Posted by K-Sci

I see the above as a bit of a hand wave.
-Keith

And that’s exactly what it was.

Each and every species has its own exudates/secretions, and each of those has its own phytochemical result.

I am not a microbiologist, nor do I want to dedicate the time to researching each species - even if I definitively knew what they were.

The companies that manufacture them generally don’t want to share the details of their makeup, and the labels don’t legally have to do so. On top of that, even they don’t know everything that’s in them (according to the PhD microbiologists at Inocucor), which means that one simply has to have some faith in the claims.

Personally, I have faith that both Quantum and Inocucor have value based upon my experience with them, but the only way I truly see the results of their application is when using them on faster-growing plants, such as impatiens in the flower boxes on my deck, my tomatoes, and a friend’s figs.

[SouthPark]

If I were going to try one of those priobiotic products - to see if it makes significant beneficial differences - it would be along the lines of Quantum/Inocucor. Better not use something like Yakult.

I don't think we have Quantum/Inocucor in Australia. Or at least not in quantities suitable for regular orchid home-growers.

[K-Sci]

Originally Posted by thefish1337

Personally, as a huge advocate of probiotics for orchids Quantum Total never really delivered for me....[etc.]

Wow, what a great post. How did you find all this information?
THANKS!
-Keith

[Diane56Victor]

Originally Posted by SouthPark

If I were going to try one of those priobiotic products - to see if it makes significant beneficial differences - it would be along the lines of Quantum/Inocucor. Better not use something like Yakult.

I don't think we have Quantum/Inocucor in Australia. Or at least not in quantities suitable for regular orchid home-growers.

Take a look at Neutrog's site and at the commerial brochure for Gogo Juice, there is a better breakdown of ingredients in that brochure.
I use it probably twice a year, hubby uses it in the garden, especially the area where he will plant his tomatoes, and we are swamped with tomatoes

[Ray]

Here is something I put together concerning my observations.

[itzi]

Originally Posted by K-Sci

I like the way you put this.

I don't see how adding organisms when watering would prevent roots from suffocating when potting media deteriorates.

-Keith

I dont know much about orchid biology, but from what I understand about root rot, it happens when the root "suffocates" itself by produce chemicals that remain stagnant and accumulate near the surface of the root due to old media or excess moisture, which do not allow for said chemicals to dissipate. Perhaps the organisms would counteract that by consuming whatever would normally pile up?

[K-Sci]

Originally Posted by itzi

I dont know much about orchid biology, but from what I understand about root rot, it happens when the root "suffocates" itself by produce chemicals that remain stagnant and accumulate near the surface of the root due to old media or excess moisture, which do not allow for said chemicals to dissipate. Perhaps the organisms would counteract that by consuming whatever would normally pile up?

This brings me back to one of my first recent posts on the forum where I asked what the mechanisms of root death were.

I know the broken down media can become acidic, so maybe there is a reaction of some type to counteract this.


A research project for tomorrow or Monday.

-Keith

[Ray]

Originally Posted by K-Sci

I know the broken down media can become acidic, so maybe there is a reaction of some type to counteract this.
A research project for tomorrow or Monday.

-Keith

I suspect there are many reasons that roots die and rot - too cold, breakage that allows the intrusion of pathogens, or out-and-out poisoning, but to me, suffocation seems to be the primary cause of root death.

The break down of media to small particles reduces the openness and airflow within the medium, allowing it to hold water longer and more completely, cutting off the air flow.

As far as I'm aware, the only thing microbes might help with is the pathogens.

[K-Sci]

Originally Posted by Ray

...to me, suffocation seems to be the primary cause of root death.

Do you know if this has been proven? Could it be that there is another mechanism and believing the cause is suffocation is

c-o-m-m-o-n
k-n-o-w-l-e-d-g-e

much like believing bock beer comes from the bottom of the barrel, covid vaccines are working, or chills can cause a cold.

-Keith