Probiotics - which to use, how to expand, how to dose and how to store

[Shadeflower]

yes dav it will be like keeping a colony or sour dough bacteria fermenting and alive from what I understand.
Just make sure they always have sugar to keep them alive.

I do not feel feeding sugar is a problem, some people add mloasses to their water on purpose and seedlings grow in sugar water.

Sugar = energy for plants too... I wouldn't bother to feed mine sugar but I do not think there is a downside to having some sugar resudue from the fermenting.

Sorry if I am not informed enough as I do not make these bacteria mixes but sugar imo is fine and safe, no issue there.

[Dekejis]

I vary when I use the mixture. Typically I will let it sit at least overnight and sometimes 48 hours or so. Some of my "tea" amendments can drop pH, which will then slowly rise over the course of 48 hours, so I used to time my waterings to coincide with when the mix would hit that ideal pH window.

One thing to keep in mind as well is that beneficials do more than simply provide protection for the plants. They also expand the root zone's reach, and there is an exchange between microbes and host plants. The bacteria that colonize the rhizosphere and plant surfaces actively produce compounds and nutrients that directly benefit the plant. Some bacteria convert certain amino acids into rooting and growth hormones to that there is more root surface area for them to colonize. Some are nitrogen-fixing and supply the plant with nitrogen pulled from the air (Legumes are famous for this sort of symbiotic relationship, but it works with other plants as well). Some facilitate better phosphorus uptake and utilization. Some bacteria actively work at breaking down base nutrients in the media into bioavailable forms that plants can use (keeping in mind that you won't get nearly as much of this benefit, i don't think, unless you are feeding organically).

My goal is to transition all of my orchids over to leveraging primarily organic nutrients and to focus on feeding the microbiome so that it, in turn, can feed the plants. I've already followed this approach for years with great success in traditional gardening and also to basket-grown cattleyas and I'm going to apply these same lessons learned to my Phragmipediums kept in standard media and also in S/H. I think S/H should lend itself well to this style of growing, and routine flushing should address any concerns about dead bacteria and whatnot accumulating. The well-aereated and constantly moist environment should provide ideal conditions for cultivating aerobic beneficial microbes.
The approach I plan on taking will be to cultivate and supply microbiome along with organic nutrients, amino acids, vitamins, kelp, minerals and humic/fulvic acids.

Agreed with Shadeflower - sugars should be no issue whatsoever when applied to the root zone. They will only further provide for a healthy food source for the microbes colonizing the medium and roots, and the plants themselves can utilize it as well. in fact, this would potentially be of even more benefit during flowering, when plants have a tendency to want to hoard their sugars and stash them in flowers and fruits, often neglecting the feeding of their symbiotic root zone partners - supplementing will keep those populations strong and healthy.

*Edit* a couple other thoughts about adapting what I'm hoping to do into S/H. I am currently growing in heavy-duty seed trays using standard pots and filling the trays with water. i use fresh rain water only for my reservoir, and I keep an air stone in them to keep the water aereated and fresh. For those of you who are using the more standard version of s/h (vase or something with holes drilled) - I would flush through with tea mixture/microbes, let it sit and then dump off as much of the reservoir as possible and then refill the reservoir by either dipping the bottom of the pot in water and letting the reservoir filled from the bottom or pour in water from the top, trying not to wash out the nutrients I just added.
This should get you all the benefits of organics in drain-to-waste in s/h. Anyway - I will be experimenting also with Ray's design for S/H pots as well. I actually have a couple of Ray's Old Skool S/H plastic pots to play with here.

[thefish1337]

Originally Posted by DavTom

Hi all,

I made a search in the forum and I did not find a thread covering all these topics, so I thought to create one. Apologies if there is already one - please re-direct me there.

I live in the Netherlands and here Quantum orchids is not available. Thanks to some suggestions, in particular from Ray regarding EM-1, I have bought an EM-1 bottle of 1 Liter. This is the url Effektive Mikroorganismen - das Ursprungsprodukt | EMIKO Online Shop

I am a newbie to probiotics, so I have started reading a lot on the Internet. But as we all know, on Internet the truth is always mixed with myths... Based on what I have read so far, I have the following questions:

- Is the EM-1 product I bought a good product? It has an EMRO certificate and GMO declaration. The price is 30 Eur for 1 Liter shipping included
- Is it different from the Quantum product? If so what is the difference? Maybe I can compensate for it by adding something else to it?
- Should I use the recommended dose on the label for orchids (my orchids are all in S/H)? The label says 20ml/liter but does not say anything about the frequency of dosing (e.g., once per month?)
- How long can the bottle be stored and at what temperatures? The label says to store it between 8 and 18 degrees Celsius. The expiration date is 1 year with the bottle closed, once opened it says to consume quickly. What does it mean quickly??
- I have read that the EM-1 ready to use (like the one in the bottle I bought) does have a less effective bacterial concentration with respect to the expanded EM1 (i.e., the one expanded and fermented with molasses). Is it true?
- There are tons of websites and videos showing how to expand it. I could not find two different sources stating the same process or ingredients!
- For instance, why is molasses used instead of simple white sugar? Because the molasses contains required minerals? Well, if this is the only reason I could add those minerals myself and use white sugar that is easier to procure and probably much less expensive
- All the molasses are OK? It seems not, but it is still not clear what exact type of molasses should be used as they likely have an effect on the PH.
- I have read that the expanded EM is ready to use when the fermentation has been completed and this can be monitored via PH reading. When the PH drops around 3.5 the expanded solution is ready to use. Is this strictly true?
- The expanded EM1 should be used within a few weeks from preparation. Is it true? And at what temperature should be stored?
- I have also read that you can not expand EM1 from an expanded solution as otherwise, the concentration of the different bacteria would not be anymore in the correct proportion.

Well...I am sure the more I will keep reading the more issues I will find.

Anybody can help me answer all those issues and maybe more?

Many thanks in advance.

Dav

Take a look at the website from an EM-1 producer in the US. I think it will answer all of your questions.

ACTIVATED EM-1® RECIPE

For consistency's sake I highly recommend always amplifying from a manufacturer produced EM-1 because Dr. Higa's technology is actually the ratio of the organisms and how they are stabilized in the final product. If you can keep the temp consistent, above 18C that will help as well.

It's just as important to have the organisms in the root zone as on the leaf surfaces. A foliar spray using a non-ionic surfactant to allow the product to cover leaf surfaces will enhance its efficacy. I know many surfactants are heavily regulated in the EU but I'm sure you can find a horticultural "wetting agent" over there. Over application is generally harmless but you might degrade organic media very fast.

[Diane56Victor]

I've used Neutrog's Gogo Juice a few times on my orchids. Probably once or twice a year.
Its a locally made produce in South Australia selling across Australia.

[DavTom]

Originally Posted by thefish1337

Take a look at the website from an EM-1 producer in the US. I think it will answer all of your questions.

ACTIVATED EM-1® RECIPE

For consistency's sake I highly recommend always amplifying from a manufacturer produced EM-1 because Dr. Higa's technology is actually the ratio of the organisms and how they are stabilized in the final product. If you can keep the temp consistent, above 18C that will help as well.

It's just as important to have the organisms in the root zone as on the leaf surfaces. A foliar spray using a non-ionic surfactant to allow the product to cover leaf surfaces will enhance its efficacy. I know many surfactants are heavily regulated in the EU but I'm sure you can find a horticultural "wetting agent" over there. Over application is generally harmless but you might degrade organic media very fast.

Thanks. I ran into that website before. Since it was not in line with other websites, i did not know which one to trust. I will give now priority to it...

Dav

[K-Sci]

Originally Posted by estación seca

First, I'm not familiar with research on whether these things really work with orchids. I think they work, Ray thinks they work, and a lot of other people think they work, but it's still conjecture until I see some well-run experiments on large subject groups of plants...

I like the way you put this.

I was skeptical of KelpMax, but was able to devise an experiment that proved to me that it is a potent product with obvious measurable beneficial effects. For this reason I started using Quantum mid-summer despite my skepticism. Still, it bothers me that I'm not even sure what the specific mechanism of action is or what the actual benefits are supposed to be.

Ray said he observed that probiotics prevented root rot in his collection. I don't see how adding organisms when watering would prevent roots from suffocating when potting media deteriorates. On the other hand, the Quantum Ray sells is a relatively cheap product to experiment with. The only identifiable negative effect is that the smell makes me want to flee my greenhouse. Fortunately, the smell dissipates in a couple hours.

-Keith

[isurus79]

Originally Posted by estación seca

Finally, using such products is of very minor importance compared to the more important orchid growing factors of proper light, temperature, humidity and watering. These products will not correct for poor growing conditions, though they might make some kinds of disease less likely. A too-cold orchid will not grow much better with probiotics.

I think this is the most important statement in this entire thread. Probiotics can be a tool for orchid growing, but are not critical for success. I don't think you need to spend a whole lot time working with these products (creating cultures, setting up buckets, etc.) if it detracts from your other, more important growing tools.

[Shadeflower]

Originally Posted by isurus79

I think this is the most important statement in this entire thread. Probiotics can be a tool for orchid growing, but are not critical for success. I don't think you need to spend a whole lot time working with these products (creating cultures, setting up buckets, etc.) if it detracts from your other, more important growing tools.

you are right but it feels a bit like Mr Bean butting in on two professional race car drivers discussing how to shave a second off their next lap time and him going "I stop to take a tea break between my laps"

Keith since, there is not much answer on the pro-biotics I will assume it makes the plants stronger, more resistant to rot, pests and cold damage.I'm sure you'd still be able to kill lots using it but if it's cheap and lasts a long time then by all means.

As you know I like kelpmax too but I would have to question how you can be so sure it works after only a few months. I have to grow an orchid for a year to know how it grows and then a further year to be able to compare results. With orchids comparing after only a few months although I have been doing that lots can give a misleading overall picture.

Like sometimes an orchid will put out 5 new growths or something and seem really vigorous but not if you then discover that each growth as a result hasn't got enough energy to grow, the plant gets set back badly and although it has 5 new growths because none grew well it takes years to get back on track. After a few months things might have seemed great but a year later you wouldn't think so anymore.
Just one simple example.. I've also tried cerain thing, moved on to trying something else but lots of times it takes at least 1 month for results to show so by the time you've moved on is it then the previous thing that made a differnce or what you tried next? The delayed response they have at times can really mess with our interpretation of good results.

Not saying it doesn't work, I think it does but I'd really have to question anyone coming to that conclusion in under 6 months.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by K-Sci

Ray said he observed that probiotics prevented root rot in his collection. I don't see how adding organisms when watering would prevent roots from suffocating when potting media deteriorates.

I believe I have said that with the use of probiotics, I have noticed the virtual elimination of rots (in general) in my collection, not specifically root rot. However, one of the reasons I have not seen root rot either is because I grow exclusively in inorganic media that don't decompose.

The only identifiable negative effect is that the smell makes me want to flee my greenhouse. Fortunately, the smell dissipates in a couple hours.

-Keith

Quantum products are bottled under and H2S blanket, which keeps them in a state of "suspended animation" and giving them a long shelf life. That's the rotten egg odor you smell.

As far as the mechanisms of "how they work", I'm sure there are many. The ones I am aware of include:

• Predation of pathogens
• Secretion of antibiotics
• Secretion of auxiins
• Decomposition of nutrient trapped in cellulosic materials
• Nitrogen fixation
• Photosythesis.

[K-Sci]

Originally Posted by Ray

As far as the mechanisms of "how they work", I'm sure there are many. The ones I am aware of include:

• Predation of pathogens
• Secretion of antibiotics
• Secretion of auxiins
• Decomposition of nutrient trapped in cellulosic materials
• Nitrogen fixation
• Photosythesis.

I see the above as a bit of a hand wave.

When I say I want to understand specific mechanics of action, I mean in a more scientific sense. For example, saying predatory insects control sucking and chewing insects isn't enough. I would rather hear that lady bugs and green lacewings control mites, mealy bugs thrips, scale, aphids, and other sucking insects by eating them.

Okay, so you know I'm not opposed to using probiotics because I've been buying them from you. I will probably continue to do so for at least another year. So, why do I use a product when I don't know if it does anything? I continuously strive to optimize most all my growing practices because I enjoy the challenges and like experimenting. As you know I did this with KelpMax getting obvious and dramatic positive results. I also learned that too much KelpMax can have negative effects.

Experimenting with probiotics is a bit more frustrating because I'm not sure what to look for or measure. If Quantum works, I have so few rot problems that I wouldn't be able to tell if it prevents rot.

-Keith

---------- Post added at 02:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Shadeflower

Keith ... As you know I like kelpmax too but I would have to question how you can be so sure it works after only a few months.

I overdosed a few select plants on KelpMax from mid-summer on last year and saw indisputable results.

Most of the selected plants grew two but more often three new leads when they had previously had produced only one new lead for years. I cn't recall ever having a one-lead sympodial orchid spontaneously grow three new leads. Other orchids produced an additional seasonal growth not normally seen. Almost all the overdosed orchids put out more roots in a few months than I typically see in 2-3 years or more.

At this juncture I would like caution against overdosing orchids with KelpMax other than as an experiment. The very large amounts of new root and top growth overtaxed the plant's biological machinery. Virtually all the plants I overdosed had small but fully mature new growths. That is, the size of the new growth was obviously stunted.

A fuller accounting of both pros and cons can be found here:

Adventures in KelpMax
-Keith