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  #41  
Old 01-01-2022, 02:05 PM
SouthPark SouthPark is offline
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We can also consider this ---------- if there happen to be no nutrients (or much water with any nutrients within it) around the roots for some conditions ----- then air-flow of any sort isn't going to improve nutrient uptake.
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  #42  
Old 01-01-2022, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roberta View Post
I think people trim Cym roots to fit plants into a pot... the Procrustean bed approach. That hurts!
Some early orchid care writers, such as Rebecca Northern recommend shearing roots when repotting. The only time I think it is appropriate is when it is unavoidable, such as when dividing a large plant. And then only to facilitate separating the parts.

I like it when my cymbidiums push themselves up above the pot rim due to the size of their root mass.
-Keith

---------- Post added at 01:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:21 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthPark View Post
We can also consider this ---------- if there happen to be no nutrients (or much water with any nutrients within it) around the roots for some conditions ----- then air-flow of any sort isn't going to improve nutrient uptake.
I suppose that could happen using an inert media and watering only with RO. Is that what you were thinking of?
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  #43  
Old 01-01-2022, 02:35 PM
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I suppose that could happen using an inert media and watering only with RO. Is that what you were thinking of?
Absolutely ------- it is for cases (including experimental cases) - where the amount of nutrients is either zero, or insignificant or inadequate.

We can also consider cases where there is not much air-flow (ignoring disease etc) ------ where there is enough nutrients in the water/media ----- and yet the orchid may grow well and be very healthy (with adequate nutrient intake).

Most orchids - don't grow relatively quickly like papaya/banana plants. They just need to get some nutrients into them, and not need it at the rates (or amounts) like the relatively fast growers (papaya etc).
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  #44  
Old 01-01-2022, 03:13 PM
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We can also consider cases where there is not much air-flow (ignoring disease etc) ------ where there is enough nutrients in the water/media ----- and yet the orchid may grow well and be very healthy (with adequate nutrient intake).
like seedling flasks for example
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  #45  
Old 01-01-2022, 03:30 PM
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like seedling flasks for example
Those are sterile environments, so there would not be the issue of pathogens that could settle. Plenty of flasks have been lost when the sterility is breached... the orchid seedlings are no match for other organisms that can grow in that environment.
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  #46  
Old 01-01-2022, 04:11 PM
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I don't know about orchids, but most plant roots exclude calcium uptake except in a tiny zone just behind the growing tip. This is to prevent being overwhelmed with calcium. Epiphytes are not exposed to as much calcium as are terrestrials, so I don't know whether this is the case with them.

It was standard practice in orchid growing for many years to remove all old roots when repotting, with the expectation new growth would provide new, better roots. It never made sense to me. I can only imagine old roots rotting in tightly closed, chilly, excessively humid and poorly lit greenhouses a hundred or more years ago - which is where a lot of horticulture originated.
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  #47  
Old 01-01-2022, 04:25 PM
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Those are sterile environments, so there would not be the issue of pathogens that could settle. Plenty of flasks have been lost when the sterility is breached... the orchid seedlings are no match for other organisms that can grow in that environment.
Ok but isn't that like saying orchids can grow absoultely anywhere, whereas I would argue no they cannot grow on a motorway, they would get squashed by a car within a minute, I don't think they would grow too well on an airoplane. Doubt they can grow in the ocean. So it is important to find a peaceful quiet spot where nothing can come and smash the orchid.

Just because a big bad fungus comes along and kills all the seedlings in a flask doesn't mean the orchids weren't growing perfectly fine with no ventilation.

Unless the point here is that ventilation is the key to eliminating all diseases which I didn't think the point has been so far but I think we might be getting there.

Is that what this post is about? I don't think it's just about ventilation in order to stop diseases. The best way is to have a sterile growing environment and clean surfaces regularly, keep new orchids quarantined and not share water. Surely you must agree with that so just because a nasty fungus comes along to ruin things I don't see how that negates the point made that orchids don't need ventilation to grow well necessarily.

Whether it is needed to stop disease is a seperate and also good topic of discussion.

Last edited by Shadeflower; 01-01-2022 at 04:29 PM..
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  #48  
Old 01-01-2022, 04:52 PM
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I'm trying to make yogurt and watch funny kitten videos, and I walked around for a half hour this morning looking for my eye glasses and I was wearing them the whole time (to be fair, I was distracted by having to wear a mask in my own house while a realtor and a herd of strangers poked around). Thinking about science that wasn't even my field is a lot of effort right now, so I googled ion transport in roots.

Problem solved (maybe-I didn't go too deep into it).

"Experimenters have also assumed that the water flow into roots is small enough that bulk streaming of the solution contributes negligibly to the ionic fluxes. Henriksen et al. (1992) have carried out an analysis that confirms the general validity of the assumption. Calculations have also been carried out for imbibing seeds (Shabala et al. 2000a) which took up water to increase their volume by 10% per hour. Their conclusion was that the contribution to fluxes by bulk solution flow was negligible."

Link: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...0.2001.00661.x

External ion concentration (fertilizer salts) is stopped at the endoderm layer cell membranes surrounding the core of the root cylinder (the stringy part). The cell membrane ion channels (and probably some other stuff) control what gets into the cell (or the cell would die from imbalance). Once ions move past the endoderm layer (or cell storage vacuole membranes) and into the apoplastic (free space) water system in the cell walls and xylem tubes they move based on a diffusion and electro-something gradient set up by a sink at the point where the ions are being used (or put into storage). Temperature plays a role.

I don't even know if the elongating cell walls that need calcium are anywhere near stomates where bulk transport of water would be carrying ions, if it were carrying ions. Certainly a bud at the end of a flower spike would be a long way away from a lot of stomates. I don't know the relationship of differentiating and functioning stomates vs where nutrients are needed most in growing leaves (chicken or egg?). At night when the photo sugar is used up the ions are going into storage vacuoles throughout the plant so the calcium or nitrate or whatever ions needed for growth when the sugar returns may come from nearby vacuoles more than the roots/external pot water.

That brings up another topic. Movement of photosynthate (sugar = building blocks for everything) is moving from the mature leaves to growth zones against the water movement. Active transport shoves it into the phloem vessels in the leaves and it moves via a diffusion gradient (iirc) from there. BTW, another wobbly factoid in my brain from way back = more magnesium is needed for this sugar shoving machinery in cold weather or the plant leaf poisons itself (osmotic stress?) with sugar build up and has to turn red to shade itself.
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  #49  
Old 01-01-2022, 05:51 PM
SouthPark SouthPark is offline
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True. Let's just say ----- no water - regardless of air-flow or not ------ generally means no nutrients gets in. And orchid growing rate is generally not rapid (except for maybe buds and spike/flower development - where spikes/buds can grow quite fast). So the orchids don't need relatively large amounts of nutrients going into them constantly.
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  #50  
Old 01-01-2022, 05:53 PM
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this is like going through all things responsible for good orchid growth so I will add my latest observation that for every ppm of magnesium you add you should add an equal amount of phosphorous (as can be seen on the mulders chart keith showed) and incidentally it turns out for every ppm of Phosphorous one should also add an equal amount of Potassium. Calcium should be roughly double the magnesium. One could also just say in the cold they need less N or like I discovered the long way, more P,K,Mg and Ca (both works out to the same ratio in the end)
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