Proposed C. Hardiana x C. Carmen Cross

[K-Sci]

I'm sure this cross already has a name. Ray, if you would look it up, it would be appreciated.

What I'm considering crossing is Cattleya Hardyana semi-alba 'CARLOS' and Cattleya Carmen semi-alba Cerro Verde AM/AOS. These are the two flowers.


Though the latter is usually sold as Cattleya lueddemanniana Cerro Verde AM/AOS, in Venezuela it is widely considered to be a lueddemanniana-warscewiczii hybrid due to the lack of horns on the column.

The goal for the cross I propose is to combine the larger size and flowering habit of warscewiczii (~50%) with the dark color and lip striations imparted by dowiana (~25% ) with the lueddemannaina's wider petals, sepal, flares, and with luck the lueddemanniana lip pattern (~25%) in a semi-alba flower.

I'm nearing retirement and starting to increase my orchid activities, but don't have background on hybridization beyond very basic influences outlined in AOS publications. What do y'all think of this cross, and what do you think the outcomes are likely to be?

-Keith

[Ray]

C. Hardyana x C. Carmen was registered as C. Alexandra by Black and Flory in 1918.

[isurus79]

Good god, do it!! I'll buy the first compot or flask you decide to sell!

[K-Sci]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Good god, do it!! I'll buy the first compot or flask you decide to sell!

It had not occurred to me to do flasks and compots. The last time I bred an orchid was in my 20s. I registered the cross with the AOS as Phalaenopsis Faye Pomeroy.

It will probably be a good 2 years before I have anything, but I'll probably post about it here when I do, so you can jump on it then.

FWIW, I wrote the breeder I bought the C. hardiana from about the likely outcome of the proposed cross, and will pass along the answer here.

-Keith

---------- Post added at 12:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Ray

C. Hardyana x C. Carmen was registered as C. Alexandra by Black and Flory in 1918.

Thank you, Ray.
-Keith

[isurus79]

Out of curiosity, who is the breeder? Not many Hardyana plants available in the USA.

[K-Sci]

Originally Posted by isurus79

Out of curiosity, who is the breeder? Not many Hardyana plants available in the USA.

Steven Christoffersen

[Fairorchids]

There is a certain charm to primary and near primary hybrids. However, they obviously come nowhere near the size and shape found in complex hybrids.

Repeating C. Alexandra with modern parents will likely improve on the progeny - that is, provided that there are still some of the original plants around to compare against.

So, I am not advising for or against. But I am predicting, that there is a relatively limited market for the seedlings.

Having said this, I should be the last one to criticize any breeding line. I have sent some 10-12 pods to the lab this year, and most are simply crosses that interest me.

[K-Sci]

Originally Posted by Fairorchids

There is a certain charm to primary and near primary hybrids. However, they obviously come nowhere near the size and shape found in complex hybrids.

I think you're right, and I'm not delusional enough to believe that I'm going to cross two primary hybrids and get a result that can complete with more than a century of breeding by experts. Still, some of the latest "high quality" flowers have so much fullness, that it degrades the appearance. IMO, it's too much of a good thing.

I'm primarily a Cattleya species collector. Good species clones have a market because, well, they're good and they're species. If, after researching the likely outcomes, I decide not to breed the two plants in this thread, it will be a C. warscewiczii same-species cross. When I first started collecting orchids, I didn't like warscewiczii feeling that they horribly lacked fullness. This has improved a lot in the last 40 years. The best ones are still not terribly full, but they're steadily improving. I love semi-albas, so it would probably be a semi-alba C. warscewiczii cross.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by K-Sci

Still, some of the latest "high quality" flowers have so much fullness, that it degrades the appearance. IMO, it's too much of a good thing.

Blame that on judging. “Standards” get put into place or evolve based upon opinions of what “better” means.

We used to show dogs, and the same crap happened. A good example is the collie - “they” decided that a long tapering head was “preferred”, so they ended up literally selectively breeding for less space for brains.

[K-Sci]

Originally Posted by Ray

We used to show dogs, and the same crap happened. A good example is the collie - “they” decided that a long tapering head was “preferred”, so they ended up literally selectively breeding for less space for brains.

\
I have wondered why so many Collies had noses so long they were very unattractive.

-Keith