Can you tell when a root is no longer alive

[Orchidtinkerer]

So over the past months I keep recommending people to remove rotting roots, this is good orchid husbandry in my opinion but every time Estacion seca comes along and disagrees.
Pleas don't take this the wrong way Estacion but that is how it has been, you are the only person that disagrees with me on this, I don't think it is a secret that you don't cut roots and I advocate it so I want more opinions on it.
I believe once a root has a loose velamen then the velamen has died.

Estacion believes otherwise and unless it completely disintegrates he believes it is still performing a function.

So thoughts on this please. Who leaves the velamen on their roots even if the velamen can be squeezed and has lost all its firmness?

I don't want to keep butting heads with Estacion. He has 10k posts and has been growing orchids for years but this is something I completely disagree with and I believe leaving loose velamen causes problems and can even lead to a plant developing stem rot.

I could keep disagreeing with ES and him with me but I want to get a vote on this to clear up this matter once and for all. If I am wrong then I will never recommend a repot again - that is absolutely fine by me but I believe I am right and ES believes he is right and I think people trying to learn deserve the right answer.

[Clawhammer]

I do not remove roots when repotting. As long as you are repotting into new media and give the plant the proper conditions and care then there will be no further rot. The old roots help to anchor the plant.

You repot to refresh old decaying substrate or because the orchid has grown out of the pot. Whether you leave or don't leave roots doesn't change that.

Also, some orchids are more tolerant to "radical repotting" than others. Plants like Anagraecums or bifoliate catts really hate repotting so in those cases it is absolutely imperative to disturb the roots as little as possible.

[Orchidtinkerer]

ah clawhammer, thanks for your repy but you have just made this topic even more complicated for me.

Angraecums don't hate repots. They do suffer badly if you damage a root but a repot should be done carefully without damaging roots and the orchid won't even feel it and carry on growing without missing a beat.

Angraecums are tricky if you manage to damage its roots but that only happens when the plant gets rootbound - ie if you avoid repots with angraecums. Great lol, more disagreement

I do agree that if you grow orchids well then roots should never rot...

But what about all the plants we buy from the shop that have not been grown too well and are rootbound and have rotting roots? It is those I am thinking of the most when I think of orchids that have bad roots.

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Orchidtinkerer

I believe once a root has a loose velamen then the velamen has died.

The velamen on orchid roots consists of dead cells to start with, so it cannot die. There are several layers between it and the vascular bundle containing the xylem and phloem.

I have heard it said that as long as the vascular bundle - the "string" in the center - is intact, the root is still functional, but I have not done any research to know if that's true or not.

[SouthPark]

O.T. -------- there's always going to be a choice for sure.

I've certainly encountered orchids like cattleya that come in via the post ...... very healthy looking. I always repot every incoming orchid. Not that it's necessary I know that. But I just do that. And I have seen portions of the roots rotting in the media ..... often deep down in the media.

I know that some people use sterilised scissors and sterilised cutters etc. to snip roots, or to snip rotted roots etc. I've never used scissors or snipping roots before heheh. I just use my fingers to pull off rotting roots. In the end, I get a hose to do a final wash for a last clean-up. And then I just pot into my potting media.

But even though this is what I do (use my fingers and hands) ------ I definitely do support the usage of sterilised scissors and cutters - for convenience and other good reasons.

I personally remove rotting roots if I encounter them. But - if growers have no issue with not removing any roots during repotting (good roots and/or rotting roots) - then absolutely no problem. As long as the orchid keeps growing nicely - then that's good.

[Leafmite]

If roots are truly dead, I remove them as in my cool winter climate, I cannot have anything that retains water near my healthy roots or I will lose them.

Angraecums...I have never had a problem moving them to a new pot. The trick is just to soak the roots well for a while, unpot, carefully remove medium, place in dry medium, keep dry for two or three days to let the roots heal and they do not miss a beat.

---------- Post added at 09:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 PM ----------

I always soak the root and if it firms up, the root is healthy. If it remains flat, it is not. I have removed the outer coating of Phal roots and potted with the string left behind. Often, though, I have found that if the roots are rotted, the inner part is, too.

[Roberta]

I don't aggressively clean roots when I repot. I give the roots a good wash with a hose, which rinses off really loose velamen along with old medium. I also don't worry about getting all the old medium off. Again what doesn't come off easily gets left. With new medium which facilitates air in the root zone, it's not an environment conducive to rot. Whether I remove really dead roots depends on the volume of good ones... if I have a dense bird's nest of old roots and a bunch of good ones, I'll remove the old ones so that the plant fits in the pot better. If there are few roots, I'm inclined to leave any that are still attached to the plant, so that the plant is held firmly in the medium... wobbling tends to prevent new roots from developing so even a bad root is better than no root.

As for Angraecoids, I mostly grow them in baskets. Lots of air... not much need to disturb the roots. If medium needs to be changed, shake off the old stuff that comes easily, leave the rest.

[Leafmite]

My plants live in an environment that is conductive to root-rot from late September until late May so I have to be extra careful. When I first found online orchid forums, people did suggest leaving the old, dead roots and I tried that and it went horribly wrong for me. Many of those people, I later realized, either had a greenhouse or lived in a warmer environment. I learned that it is important to compare one's environment to the the environment of one who is giving advice.

[Roberta]

Originally Posted by Leafmite

My plants live in an environment that is conductive to root-rot from late September until late May so I have to be extra careful. When I first found online orchid forums, people did suggest leaving the old, dead roots and I tried that and it went horribly wrong for me. Many of those people, I later realized, either had a greenhouse or lived in a warmer environment. I learned that it is important to compare one's environment to the the environment of one who is giving advice.

You are so right, one person's environment is different from another's, with different problems. Actually, what I think helps avoid rot where I live isn't warmth... by the standards of most places my winters aren't "cold" ... frost is fairly rare and I don't have to shovel snow, but it's definitely chilly (OK, I'm a wimp ) and 90% of my orchids grow outside all year. What I think helps is that it is relatively dry. So as the plants dry out, there is a tendency for air to be pulled into the root zone. But also, being outside I can freely water so everything gets pretty well flushed. ("Rain" comes out of a hose)

[Orchidtinkerer]

Thanks for the words of encouragement everyone.

I have to admit I was questioning myself quite a bit. I know how challenging it is to grow orchids, sometimes even seeming like sucess or failure can be a bit random and I believe 50% of things I have read online have not necessarily been false but if I followed said advice my plants would suffer.

So that makes it tough. Even though I have 30 years experience growing plants when it comes to orchids I don't believe they are more challenging but they are vastly different and one has to learn everything all over again. When people throw in what I call wrong information it can really mess things up, especially if it takes years to just get some orchids into a decent shape but I do acknowledge what works for some might not work for others so what is wrong for me might be right for someone else (but does not make things any easier though)

As such I like to make my own mind up, I'm actually glad clawhammer brought up Angraecums as they are the perfect example. If you research angraecums most guides will recommend to be cautious of repots and that it will cause them to stall for 3 years (so I have read) but that just got picked up by people and was spread over the years. It is far easier to write a care guide on Angraecums than it is to actually get one to flower. I haven't even grown angraecums long enough to know that much about them, 2 years is nothing in angraecum terms, my smallest has grown as many leaves in that time. I've gotten one to flower for me so far lol so they are very slow even if you don't stall them.

One thing I keep noticing is how in my opinion people like to make the hobby unnecessarily hard for themselves.
I will list some examples:

- watering daily (ie choosing a growing method that requires daily watering)
- keeping some dendrobiums dry in winter
- feeding every 4th watering (or another schedule that needs to be recorded) - trying to remember which ones got fed when and which ones need to be fed next - nightmare
- considering some orchids to be wet loving and some dry loving - this is extremely difficult to judge - how wet is wet, how dry is dry?

So considering orchids are seen as challenging anyway for me to add any additional challenges is detrimental although these things are done in theory to "help" said orchids do better than they were without said adjustments.

I have spent my whole time growing orchids trying to come up with a "one approach" fits all method and I believe self watering pots are that answer.

I grow african orchids, cattleya, zygopetalums, dendrobiums, phals and even vanda's using self watering pots. The only one I had to make adjustments for were the vandas and rhynchostylises as they really do not like wet roots and admittedly my angraecums do not seem to like self watering pots (but they are tolerating it so I just need more time with angraecums)

Although I feel I have accomplished a lot, self watering pots are still seen as a beginner way of growing I get the impression. As such I do get annoyed when I get ignored and someone giving out "false" information gets called the most knowledgeable orchid grower just because they are repeating decade old care guides vs me giving out unheard truths that nobody believes.

Admittedly this is more my problem and it might just be that it might work for someone else but not me.

Anyway I have decided to not get involved with helping anymore.

I have learnt everything I need to by now and I was hoping to pass on my new found knowledge to the community but it has just made me bump heads too many times so I am retiring from the orchid helping.

Still planning to grow my orchids of course and I love my maintenance free approach which lets me enjoy my plants instead of having to water them all the time.

I mean my orchids go through 15 liters of water per week. That is a lot of water in a month but watering my collection never takes more than half an hour. MissOrchidgirl spends 4 hours every week and she has about as many as me.

Like many before me have pointed out they are limited how many orchids they can have as at some point what starts as a fun hobby can soon turn into a weekly chore.
I have done more hobbies in my life than I can count and this is one big reason hobbies fail. Once it turns from a fun pastime into it becoming a barrier to going on holiday, this hobby starts to lose people long term although I have seen someone take their orchids on holiday with them lol!

I've rarely lost an orchid because I failed to water it but I have lost some leaves due to forgetting to water at times and it just reminds you how fragile and dependent they are (not to an outdoor grower who I seem to bump most heads with). To me an outdoor grower doesn't know as much, they don't need to as I like to say they have the best gardener in the world looking after theirs, god himself. So if you have the best gardener in the world taking care of your plants then you don't need to know that much yourself to succeed.

I grow in a climate that orchids cannot grow in.

But to explain all I have mentioned here to new growers is not practical and I have mentioned too many times helping just seems to cause arguments at times.

I'm sure most people having tried to help out on this forum have bumped heads at one time or another.

The people that know what they are talking about eventually stop helping.

How many people here grow orchids well? I know several members that I love hearing from but I often find, the people showing the orchids they grow rarely get involved in forum discussions even though they should know best but for a very good reason.
Firstly too many people like to disagree having only theoretical knowledge on the subject cause having practical knowledge requires years and after picking up that knowledge nobody wants to get involved in what often ends in childish discussions...

What bugs me the most is someone giving advice on a plant they have never even grown before although I have to admit I have done this myself although I would only do it if I truly believed that my overall experience would be enough. Sometimes it is sometimes it isn't.

Pointing out someone is wrong on a forum never gets you any brownie points. Ever.

And I think the biggest reason the experienced people do not give advice is because over the years they have learnt how random our successes can seem at times and that what works for them might not work for others so no advice will be accurate for everyone!
Beginners are not as weary and once they have some pot luck doing something they will advertise it for the world to hear whether it was random luck or not, they might only discover several years later that is was.

Anyway as such I have decided to not get involved with giving advice any more. I have decided to retire for my own benefit.

I like helping people but the people requesting help are often never heard from again on this forum and the help is rarely appreciated.

I have racked up over 100 likes in the time I have been here and I appreciate it but overall if you feel like your advice gets ignored a lot or even questioned after spending years figuring out that info (compared to someone else just having copied and pasted something from google) then it gets annoying to help.

I have decided I get too little benefit from helping out strangers but I see this as a good thing. I think I have finally grown as an orchid grower and can now ascend into my next role of growing them and showing them off instead without thinking about their care much.

My watering is on autopilot most of the time. Bit of fertilzer, bit of seaweed extract, bit of silicon, adjust the ph and ready to go.

I do think it is a shame that exactly those growers that have the experience end up not participating as much in discussions but I do understand why.

One of my favourite quotes I saw on here was along the lines of: "Never argue with trolls, they will drag you down to their level first then beat you with experience"

I think that sums up the forum experience quite well.

One I heard recenlty was a Winston Churchill quote and although he was a raging alcoholic he did go down in history quite favorably and had many quotes including:

You have enemies? Good! It means you stood up for something in your life.

But as mentioned I'm done with all that and time for me to retire from the forum and enjoy my plants instead.