orchids and decay

[DirtyCoconuts]

I will start this conversation with a HUGE acceptance of a principle that i think we should all accept to make the conversation more focused....people grow orchids for different reasons.

if we all agree about that, i really only want to talk about two types of growers...the hobbyist and the 'orchids in situ' person. I know a LOT of people grow for shows and competitions. i am not interested in that perspective because the form of the orchid and the appearance are not part of this conversation....same for the commercial grower.

so,

what do you think about decaying materials? in the medium, on the medium and on the plant (leaf drop, not part of the plant rotting)

i was thinking about the idea that most of these plants get fed when water washes decaying material off the tree (comments by Ray and E.S. in the microfauna thread) and that made me think about the major issues that can appear in orchid medium and how having MORE decay and not less might be the key.

I am going to remove the idea of the medium itself decaying, this is not what i mean...that robs the plant of airspaces and changes the growing conditions....i am thinking like adding some leaf litter or thin and long mulch or small amounts of compost.

if you had a bioactive growing area where the microfauna are eating the mold and fungus and the orchid is soaking up all the resulting nutes that seems like a win.


I will add at this point that i FULLY understand why indoor grower might be leaving the conversation at this point lol


In a tree there would be all sorts of dead stuff, leaf drop and poops (bird lizard and bug) as well as the resulting byproducts of their decomposition. So instead of adding probiotics for them to just run off after a small amount hits the roots, would it be more effective to make an environment where they would thrive along with other microfauna? the clear answer would be yes if there was not a trade off or negative to this and i am not seeing one as long as the material you added for the purpose of decay was not full of disease but i can think of a lot of ways to avoid that


thoughts?

---------- Post added at 08:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 AM ----------

oh, i wanted to clarify that this is not the same topic as the microfauna thread so please don't debate the benefits there...i want to focus on the element of FEEDing those elements and making as close to a sustaining system as possible

[Carebear2]

I think you need to divide your criteria of hobbyist again then coconuts.
I know lots that just grow for the nice flowers and obviously want their plants to do well but are not prepared to go all out - as long as they grow along ok that's fine.

Then there are the perfectionists and tinkererers that strive to achieve the best results possible in an artificial environment.

Then there are those that stick to tried and tested methods all pros and cons. Some people also like beneficial insects in their pots. I've seen people convinced cow dung was useful to use.

Me - I avoid all rotting material at all cost. It is the key to my success, so you coco as a hobbyist too are now striving for the beneficial bacteria aspect and I can understand but me I avoid all bacteria, no good (as far as I am aware) and certainly no bad bacteria. What makes one do well is the right conditions for the other too and then it just becomes a battle field of bacteria hoping that the good will keep the bad at bay - that's my logic which might be right, it might not be. Bad bacteria grows in rotting stuff so I avoid it.

When growing in bark for example I am careful not to keep the bark soaking wet for too long as this causes bad conditions in the pot, it's frustrating for me to grow this way as I know how fast well watered orchids can grow but by keeping them semi dry all the time they grow slower. With leaf litter, compost you might end up with a similar problem.

I know it's a tricky debate and everyone should grow how they have learnt to grow best, changing things drastically overnight is never a good idea. It's just my thought on the matter.

[WaterWitchin]

I think, DCoconuts, the conversation is about attempting to grow orchids as they grow in nature, correct? So if it's an epiphyte, grow in a tree or mounted on a branch that mimics it growing in a tree. If it's a semi-terrestrial, grow it outside in that particular orchid's natural environment. If it grows in a bog, grow it in a man-made bog.

For the most part, why not? That's the way the plant grows. So hang in the tree... but why provide anything other than hanging in the tree? Won't it eventually get its own natural debris if you don't remove it? Same with a mount, IF it's grown where that orchid would grow anyway. Mounted orchid under a tree? To a bush?

In your particular climate, there are many you could grow and not give a second thought. Your environment mimics the way many orchids grow in situ. The problem comes in where your environment doesn't specifically match the year-round conditions of its natural environment. For example, a Catasetum that needs a long dry spell. Whoops. An orchid that doesn't require sauna conditions. Whoops.

As far as adding debris... why not just let nature take its course? As far as removing dead/dying parts of orchids, just leave it be and don't remove. As long as it's an orchid that can be easily replaced, just grow as it grows in its natural environment. Orchids in the wild populate... and a lot of them succumb in that same environment.

I have more to say and I'll be back. Other priorities call...

[DirtyCoconuts]

thanks for the thoughts guys

i should clarify what i am thinking about specifically as that may sharpen the focus.

I have a potting mix that is basically perlite, lava rock and charcoal. i use large pieces and if it is a species that prefers to stay moist i will add a little of very high quality bark but again, large pieces to keep the airflow.

for the sake of this discussion i was thinking about the plants that are in my patio (under roof, behind screen) i water them with rainwater and city water but they get way mostly rainwater since there are no convenient hoses. i was thinking about adding some leaf litter or Spanish moss on top of the rocks so that as it dies (or just drops parts that do) they will break down and increase the amount of life activity in the root zone. I would add some spring tails to the pot and continue to use probiotic monthly




one of the other things that has started this idea is on my Myr. grandiflora (massive plant on a mount outdoors) it started to do much better a few years ago when someone suggested i stop taking of the leafdrop from the ficus and just let it accumulate where it does and fall off of where it does.

While this might have contributed to the shade/temperature, i suspect it is the addition of more available resources from the decaying material.


just spit-ballin', thanks for playing along

[Mr.Fakename]

Some of the best Paph and Phrag I've ever seen were left in this debris and mulch situation. Dead flowers? In the pot. Dead leaves? In the pot.

I guess the important thing is finding the correct clean-up crew.
Springtails spawned in some of my orchids and they're not doing any damage, so I keep them to take care of mold; but I've also had millipedes that destroyed roots.

[SouthPark]

DC ----- know what you mean about leaf litter. In the wild, the orchids can definitely start growing where-ever the conditions allows the seed to get itself going.

And then those plants become part of statistics ----- like if the spot they grow remains hospitable, then they can keep going. But for other spots, if conditions don't turn out favourable later - eg. too much buildup of something in a particular spot, then the orchid might end up not making it.

What you could do is to allow leaf litter to settle, and rot etc, and just keep monitoring the condition of the plants. If a year becomes years of no issues, then that will be a green light.

[DirtyCoconuts]

I am not into the millipedes
Too much temptation for them lol

The springtails are great and I am researching isopods too

[Mr.Fakename]

When looking for options to build a bioactive terrarium, I came across those two websites that seem to have good reviews :
Buy pet Isopods and invertabrates -Isopodshop.com
Isopods - Roly Polys - Supplies

Maybe you could ask them for advice to choose a breed that would suit your needs?

It might be difficult to calculate the equilibrium between how much they eat and how much the orchids provide though

[Leafmite]

Though I belong to an orchid society, I just grow my orchids for the flowers (I prefer them to be fragrant....). I do remove leaves as the home can be cool in winter and maximum airflow is best but I crumble eggshells on top of the rock. It doesn't look pretty but my orchids enjoy that extra Calcium. If I grew in an environment that was warm enough that the plants could stay outside during the winter, I would probably be fine with leaving the leaves, too.

[estación seca]

In habitat some orchids normally have plenty of leaf litter at the base, and others do not. Many orchids have spiky roots growing upwards to form a basket around the base of the plant, which catches large amounts of leaf debris. Most of these are in the Cymbidium tribe like Cymbidium, Grammatophyllum and some of the New World Stanhopea relatives. The decaying leaf litter promotes growth of fungi and cyanobacteria that release nutrients or fix nitrogen from the air.

Others grow in such a manner as to trap large amounts of leaf litter among their leaves. Many of the larger Bulbophyllums spiral upwards around a tree as they grow, pseudobulbs far apart on the rhizome. The large paddle-shaped leaves trap leaf material, forming a more wet microclimate for the fine Bulbo roots, which would otherwise dry out. Many of these species are hard to grow in cultivation because their rhizomes are so long between pseudobulbs. They require very high humidity in cultivation to ensure the roots never dry out. Yet the humidity in habitat is not as high as is needed to keep them alive in captivity; this is likely due to the leaf litter trapped over the rhizome by the plant's growth habit. People have succeeded growing them on wire fencing cylinders stuffed with moss, standing in buckets of water. The plants spiral up the cylinders.

Whatever beneficial microorganisms are adapted to that environment may not do well in our typical growing conditions of wet-dry periods. Most orchids stay moist throughout the entire growing season in habitat.

Most cloud forest epiphytes grow in beds of moss on trees, and not among leaf litter. Look at IOSPE for the photo of Epidendrum polybulbon. Why? There are vast numbers of termites, which quickly eat fallen leaf litter. Termites tend to come out at night when it's cooler, so people don't see them. It's the same in deserts. You see almost no fallen leaf, nor branch litter, because subterranean termites eat it so rapidly.

I wouldn't think epiphytes not normally growing among leaf litter in habitat would enjoy it in cultivation. So once again looking at plants in habitat will be important.

I will add another thing. The late plant explorer John Lavranos told me most of the lithophytic orchids of Madagascar were best grown in shallow dish type containers with smallish particles of pumice or scoria, topped with a inch/2.5cm layer of leaf litter from whatever trees grow near the gardener's house. He told me to use mesquite leaf litter. He specifically referred to Sobennikoffia and Jumellea. He said he had a Sobennikoffia robusta in such a clay dish on his front porch, facing the afternoon sun, where it grew and flowered in Loure, Portugal.