Using bacteria, fungi and microfauna with orchids

[Mr.Fakename]

Greetings all,


I would like to get your opinions and experiences about beneficial bacteria, fungi and various elements that are not found in regular growing routines.

Last year I experimented with 6 Phalaenopsis : 3 NOID in pure Sphagnum moss, 2 NOID and a violacea in a Sphag and bark mix.
For an entire year, I didn't provide fertiliser and only watered with tap water.


For reference, here's a water analysis from local authorities
Conductivity 237 µS/cm, pH 7.4, hardness 108 mg-CaCO3/L
Ca 38mg/L, Mg 3.3mg/L, Na 14mg/L, sulfates 18mg/L


I didn't expect things to go really well, but to my surprise the plants grew almost normally and without obvious deficiencies.
The only major difference with fertiliser was the amount and longevity of flowers.
The 3 Phal in a Sphagnum and bark mix bloomed, the 3 in pure Sphag didn't.
I noticed that the more degraded the media became, the faster the growth.

My takeaway is that bacteria and fungi in the potting media are much, much more important and efficient that I ever imagined.
While it's by no mean a proper scientific experiment, and things would probably have been different with fast growers and heavy feeders like Cattleya or Vanda, I'm still amazed by the quantity of nutrients that had to be released and/or recycled to sustain the plants.


Following this "discovery", I've recently bought a bunch of bacteria (https://thenutrientcompany.com/products/tnc-bactorr-s13), fungi (https://thenutrientcompany.com/collections/beneficial-fungi/products/tnc-tricorr-p5), and various organic plant boosters and additives from Biobizz.
They contain amino acids, humic acids, minerals, vitamins etc that I've never seen in traditional fertilisers.

I think the next step is to get seedlings and try Ray's method for growing excellent plants, and feed different additives to different batches.
If you have suggestions on what media to use, how to conduct the experiment, what you've already tried, what pitfalls to avoid and so on, I'll gladly take them.

[estación seca]

Welcome to the Orchid Board!

Microorganisms live in symbiosis with plants. People don't realize how important they are. Fungicides and herbicides kill a lot of the microflora, disrupting this ecosystem. That's why I'm always telling people not to use fungicides unless they know which fungus they are treating, they know the fungus is causing the problem and they know the fungus is susceptible to the fungicide used. It's similar with antibiotic use in humans.

[DirtyCoconuts]

I have become a zealot for Inococur since being introduced to it here....alas my five gallon brew bin is the last of that and i am also using the new probiotic blend that Ray has found on some of my terrestrial orchids and other non-orchid plants with good results too

be sure to not allow TOO much of the rotten stuff in the medium as it will eventually choke the roots of O2 and possibly become toxic if not flushed

[Carebear2]

I have tried probiotic bacteria and although they are better than no beneficial bacteria they still can't prevent rot completely so are not the best safety net imo and they are expensive. You still need to avoid rot by keeping your growing environment as clean as possible and change media before it goes bad and if you do and thus keep rot away then beneficial bacteria has had no noticeable effect imo.

They certainly don't produce nutrients as you assume Mr FakeName.

Decaying substrate even consumes Nutrients, it does not make them more available. The simple fact is that tap water does contain enough Nutrients to grow Orchids, they need minimal amounts and tap water provides plenty, too much probably even, the biggest problem with tap water is it can cause an imbalance of nutrients, too little N and too much calcium and magnesiuum so adding a fertilizer adjusts the imbalance but the plant does get enough as you have noticed without.

One concern I would have about your experiment is that Bio-Bizz is an organic fertilizer for soil. Soil fertilizer is different to orchid and hydroponic fertilizer in that the Nutrients need to be broken down by soil bacteria to be turned into an absorbable form by the plants. If there is no soil then the nutrients cannot be absorbed and will build up as salt deposits on the roots.

There are thousands of additives to try, I gave up trying more very early on, the best imrovements I got was finding the right ratio of Nutrients, using the right Ph so plants could absorb all Nutrients properly, and feeding the right amount of Nutrients so there wouldn't be salt buildups.
Additives usually just mess things up more than they do good and if you haven't got the base steps I mentioned dialed in properly first there is no point wasting money on additives that in my experience rarely do much good anyway. The plant needs the basic Nutrients it needs, it doesn't need vitamins, boosters, enhancers or other stuff. A bit of sea weed extract is the only additive I use that has delivered good results. Superthrive is good too but it can interfere with flowering

[Ray]

Good grief. Must you continue to pollute this forum with so much bad information?

Originally Posted by Carebear2

I have tried probiotic bacteria and although they are better than no beneficial bacteria they still can't prevent rot completely so are not the best safety net imo and they are expensive. You still need to avoid rot by keeping your growing environment as clean as possible and change media before it goes bad and if you do and thus keep rot away then beneficial bacteria has had no noticeable effect imo.

If you are using a probiotic that is reasonably broad-spectrum, it will prevent most-, if not all rots and can help cure them, too. If you continue having rot issues, you probably need to take a closer look at the quality of your overall culture.

Originally Posted by Carebear2

They certainly don't produce nutrients as you assume Mr FakeName.

Decaying substrate even consumes Nutrients, it does not make them more available.

The nutrients that are tied up in the structure of potting media components - often cellulose - and even dead roots are not in a form that is usable by a plant. Microbes decompose (defined as "break apart") those materials into components that are usable by the plants. Yes they do consume nutrients as they do - nitrogen - but the net effect is more available nutrition, not less. Don't forget, when a bacterium dies, it releases its own stored nutrient components, too.

Obviously I cannot speak for all products, but Quantum-Total contains nitrogen-fixing bacteria that populate the plant and medium, converting nitrogen in the air to a form the plant can use to supplement it's nutrition.

It also contains photosynthetic species that populate the plant, converting light into sugars, supplementing the plant's own photosynthetic process.

Originally Posted by Carebear2

The simple fact is that tap water does contain enough Nutrients to grow Orchids, they need minimal amounts and tap water provides plenty, too much probably even, the biggest problem with tap water is it can cause an imbalance of nutrients, too little N and too much calcium and magnesiuum so adding a fertilizer adjusts the imbalance but the plant does get enough as you have noticed without.

That is an internally, nonsensical statement:

• water does contain enough Nutrients to grow Orchids
• too much probably even
• too little N
• too much calcium and magnesiuum

Originally Posted by Carebear2

One concern I would have about your experiment is that Bio-Bizz is an organic fertilizer for soil. Soil fertilizer is different to orchid and hydroponic fertilizer in that the Nutrients need to be broken down by soil bacteria to be turned into an absorbable form by the plants. If there is no soil then the nutrients cannot be absorbed and will build up as salt deposits on the roots.

The only "soil fertilizer" component I'm aware of that needs to be "broken down by soil bacteria" is urea, but by doing so, they accelerates it's uptake. Plants can take up urea directly via the roots, just not as well as they can nitrate and ammonium forms.

Plus, if you're adding microbes via probiotics, might that not be what's needed to do the work you insist doesn't happen?

Salt deposits form due to excessive concentration, not the form they were in while in solution.

[Mr.Fakename]

Originally Posted by estación seca

Welcome to the Orchid Board!

Thank you!

Originally Posted by estación seca

Microorganisms live in symbiosis with plants. People don't realize how important they are.

Crazy, right? There's lots of information about potting media water retention, pH or even amendment, but not that much about microorganisms.

After some googling it seems that bacteria are an essential part of ponds and aquarium, and oddly enough they're not really talked about in the orchid world. At least where I live!

Originally Posted by DirtyCoconuts

be sure to not allow TOO much of the rotten stuff in the medium as it will eventually choke the roots of O2 and possibly become toxic if not flushed

That is a good point. "Thankfully" temperatures here are super hot and dry, so the substrate doesn't break down too quickly; and I stopped before the conditions became anaerobic.

Originally Posted by Carebear2

Decaying substrate even consumes Nutrients, it does not make them more available. The simple fact is that tap water does contain enough Nutrients to grow Orchids, they need minimal amounts and tap water provides plenty, too much probably even, the biggest problem with tap water is it can cause an imbalance of nutrients, too little N and too much calcium and magnesiuum so adding a fertilizer adjusts the imbalance but the plant does get enough as you have noticed without.

I'm by not stretch of the imagination an expert, but I'm pretty sure that's not how it works.
My tap water is pretty decent and I've never seen an issue with it; it doesn't mean it's the same for everyone. One of my friends lives in the mountains, her tap water is extremely hard and alkaline and she can't use it as is.
Adding a fertiliser won't fix your water if you don't do the maths.
I suggest you take a look at https://firstrays.com/wp/wp-content/...er-quality.pdf

Originally Posted by Carebear2

Additives usually just mess things up more than they do good and if you haven't got the base steps I mentioned dialed in properly first there is no point wasting money on additives that in my experience rarely do much good anyway. The plant needs the basic Nutrients it needs, it doesn't need vitamins, boosters, enhancers or other stuff.

Do orchids need vitamins and boosters? Probably not if we use a proper substrate and fertiliser.
But as estación seca mentioned, plants live in symbiosis with tons of bacteria, fungi, microscopic insects... If we can provide those and get happier and healthier plants, why not consider it? The key is finding the right ones, in the right amount, for our conditions and plants.
This is the thing I would like to find out, does it actually make a visible difference?

Originally Posted by Ray

It also contains photosynthetic species that populate the plant, converting light into sugars, supplementing the plant's own photosynthetic process.

That is very interesting, do you have more info about those bacteria and how it works?

[Ray]

Originally Posted by Mr.Fakename

Do orchids need vitamins and boosters? Probably not if we use a proper substrate and fertiliser.
But as estación seca mentioned, plants live in symbiosis with tons of bacteria, fungi, microscopic insects... If we can provide those and get happier and healthier plants, why not consider it? The key is finding the right ones, in the right amount, for our conditions and plants.
This is the thing I would like to find out, does it actually make a visible difference?

I think to some degree, vitamins are merely easy-to-digest nutrient sources (lots of carbon and nitrogen), but I can also say - via anecdotal evidence - that the application of supplements like KelpMax, which contains lots of vitamins, amino acids, and lots of other stuff, is noticeably beneficial.

(Re: Photosynthetic bacteria).

do you have more info about those bacteria and how it works?

Unfortunately, no. The technical director mentioned that they populate the vascular tissue, so once exposed to light and the plant’s juices, they convert stuff and secrete sugars.

[thefish1337]

Here is an excellent open access paper about plant growth promoting rhizobacteria and their effect on the survival rate of deflasked C. walkeriana seedlings.

Twenty-six bacteria were isolated and purified from the rhizoplane of the orchid C. walkeriana, of which 11 were epiphytic and 15 endophytic types (Table 1). Among IAA-positive bacteria, the four greatest auxin producers were selected for further testing (including two epiphytic and two endophytic).

There were (26!) strains of PGPR that showed auxin production in their assay. The study was also limited to what they could easily grow in the lab so the number of beneficial microorganisms is likely much higher. It's obvious that orchids, and really all plants for that matter rely on bacteria and fungi to survive and exploit their ecological niche. Why do orchids do so well when you give them a quality microbial inoculant? Its because their roots are quite literally evolved to host bacteria and fungi necessary for eeking out a living as an epiphyte:

The roots of Orchidaceae plants are composed of vascular cambium, cortex and velamen. The latter has lignified cells and can serve as a reserve source of water and nutrients and can function as protection (mechanical protection and solar radiation reflection), especially of roots of epiphytic orchids (Arditti, 2008). The velamen is permeable to gas and also serves as an important and specific niche inhabited by associative microorganisms (Tsavkelova et al., 2007a).

Microbial root colonization can also be determined by assessing the composition of exudates, such as carbohydrates, organic acids, amino acids, and vitamins (Solano et al., 2008; Tsavkelova, 2007a), which promote both physical benefits (mucilages that protect the roots from friction with the growth substrate) and chemical benefits (attraction of beneficial microorganisms) for the plant (Nehl et al., 1996). The root exudates also enrich the rhizosphere with tryptophan, which is the main precursor in the microbial biosynthesis of IAA (Tien et al., 1979).

Even crazier, it may be that some ephiphytic orchids are actually fixing nitrogen from the air due to the bacteria living in their roots:

Although rhizobacteria are known to have a great and often favorable impact on plant development (Solano et al., 2008), little is known about composition and functional activity of the orchid-associated bacteria and only one paper reported the occurrence of the N2 fixing Azospirillum amazonense on roots of Brazilian orchids (Lange & Moreira, 2002).

[Mr.Fakename]

Very good find, it is a valuable source of information!
It shows how little we actually know and how big of a potential there is; for medicine, industry, or in this case conservation of species.

While most of those bacteria are for research purposes only, seeing them gradually get into commercial products is a hell of a blessing for hobbyists.

[DirtyCoconuts]

Never dive in for the whole collection. Start on one plant lol