Hybrid Question

[kavanaru]

Actually they are called meristem clones to differentiate them from clones starting from other cells. It is easier to de-differentiate specialized plant cells than animal cells. When you start with meristematic cells, you have the advantage of avoiding the "de-differentiation" process and also ensuring your clones are virus-free, as Camille already mentionned. The reason for this, is as camille said, because the meristem grows faster than the time needed by the virus to infect the cells, therefore virus infected cell are always a bit behind. It is important then to pick the meristematic tissue from the very tip of it...

[TheNewGuy]

So if one was to propogate a sterile plant, they would have to divide it or use meristem cloning?

[tuvoc]

That would be it. I don't think it would make much sense to breeders, but if it is a good plant for the general market, why not.

Kim

[orchids3]

I think the meristem process is both a blessing and a curse. It is a blessing because it makes a lot of orchids available to the public and therefore reduces prices overall. It is a curse because many rather sorry vendors meristem rubbish just to have something to sell. This curse has raised its ugly head in later times. Also meristemers often reproduce and sell what they have no right to meristem. The result is a lot of rather poor junk being on the market. When I was in the early stages of my orchid 'Mania' anything I could buy was of interest. Now that I have several thousand and can recognize the good from the poor I feel cheated by the proliferators of junk. Just because J.Q. Public buys almost anything is no excuse for selling it. A sucker is born every minute - so beware and become more enlightened in how you spend your dollars.
There are also problems with "Meristem Mutations" some good but most are bad. If you really want a good collection buy divisions of good plants or buy a lot of seedlings which are hybrids of good plants and buy from reputable dealers.

[kavanaru]

Orchids3, I have to disagree with your point of view. No everybody is willing to buy a very rare Fredclarkeara After Dark 'SVO Black Diamond' FCC/AOS, a Paphiopedilum sanderianum 'Rapunzel' AM/AOS or a rare Phragmipedium kovachii just to put in the kitchen window and cheer up their life in a normal apartment in the middle of downtonw, and spent several hundreds of dollars for it. For many people it is enogh to have a plant that look nice to them and which is also easy to keep, and affordable. Especialized orchids collectors DO NOT need to buy their plants at the supermarkets for a couple of bugs. They can contact espacialized nurseries, which BTW also use cloning to reproduce most of their plants!

[goodgollymissmolly]

I think only Shakkai and Andrew mentioned mitochondrial and chloroplast DNA. It matters not which plant is mom or dad regarding nuclear DNA, but both mitochrondrial and chloroplast DNA are contributed solely from the female (pod) parent. Since mitochrondria supply the cell energy the plant uses, the most vigorous plant should always be the pod parent. Chloroplast DNA controls the green pigment in the plant. With certain very rare exceptions you can only get a variegated hosta from a variegated mom. Remember that green, along with orange/yellow carotenoids, and purple/orchid anthrocyanins are the only pigments flowers have to work with.

Kavanaru is right that TC (mericloning) can be used to get a virus free plant from an infected plant, BUT unless one intends to accomplish this it is not likely to happen. Since the meristem can outgrow the virus infection you can harvest some healthy tissue for TC, but if you are simply producing a common, horticultural cloning, you are not likely to harvest just healthy tissue and actually infect the entire TC batch. TC is the main way viruses are spread to large batches of horticultural plants.

It is not true that mutation rates increase with TC (unless there are multiple generations of TC'ed plants). Study after study illustrate that mutation rates are the same as in nature. The perception arises because someone can see tens or hundreds of thousands of TC clones all together and see the mutations. No one ever gets to see that many vegetative clones all together. It's just a question of numbers.

[orchids3]

As I said in the earlier part of my post - in many ways meristem practice is a blessing. The truth is that meristems often mutate in a way that yield plants that are deformed and dont grow true to the plant or well. I have no quarrel with reputable nurseries making clones of their best plants but if you check it out you will find that many clones are piracy of the work of a hybridizer who has spent many years developing the plant. We have copy right laws to protect recording artists, writers, software producers, inventions etc but do not protect hybridizers who spend lifetimes to produce that one special plant. Does he not have the same right to protection as a rock star. We are finding ourselves over run with foreign products which have been cloned until it is junk and violates the right or our own hard working hybridizers - to make well deserved livings.
As far as the buyer who wants a plant for the windowsill and choosed not to be informed?- well let the buyer beware!

[kavanaru]

Originally Posted by orchids3

We have copy right laws to protect recording artists, writers, software producers, inventions etc but do not protect hybridizers who spend lifetimes to produce that one special plant.
As far as the buyer who wants a plant for the windowsill and choosed not to be informed?- well let the buyer beware!

Hi Orchids, just for your information. These laws exist already in many countries You can patent hybrids and clones... and in many cases the right to clone those patented plants (identified via genetic markers!) are sold to exactly the same nurseries that produced millions of plants for the supermarket normal customers... sometimes they are even the ones who registered the plant!

[camille1585]

Originally Posted by kavanaru

Hi Orchids, just for your information. These laws exist already in many countries You can patent hybrids and clones... and in many cases the right to clone those patented plants (identified via genetic markers!) are sold to exactly the same nurseries that produced millions of plants for the supermarket normal customers... sometimes they are even the ones who registered the plant!

In Europe plant patents are regulated by the Community Plant Variety Office based in Angers, France. (The same thing must also exist in the USA and elsewhere)Once a breeder had patented a variety, other growers are allowed to multiply and sell this variety as long as they pay royalties to th breeder.The problem is that this can be difficult to control. Illegal cloning (not paying royalties) is a big problem for rose breeders for example, who can't control every single person who grows their variety, especially in South america, africa and china. I think that a grower can have a variety for free if it is for breeding purposes, to create a new cross.

[goodgollymissmolly]

Originally Posted by orchids3

The truth is that meristems often mutate in a way that yield plants that are deformed and dont grow true to the plant or well.

I have no quarrel with reputable nurseries making clones of their best plants but if you check it out you will find that many clones are piracy of the work of a hybridizer who has spent many years developing the plant. We have copy right laws to protect recording artists, writers, software producers, inventions etc but do not protect hybridizers who spend lifetimes to produce that one special plant.

As I posted, the popular rumor that mericlones mutate at a higher rate than natural growth is wrong and has been shown to be wrong multiple times. Can it be done in a sloppy manner..yes...and there are examples in commerce. That's not a technical problem. It's a people problem. well known hybridizers have been known to ship the wrong plant. Is that reason to avoid buying plants altogether or condemn hybridizers?

As others have said, plant protections do exist. In the US you can get a patent. Enforcing that patent is the problem. The DNA testing required to prove your case costs more the plant is worth. The other copyright/patent examples you mentioned are violated every day. The protection of intellectual property with little value (like a plant) is just economically impossible.

So look at the bright side...TC allows us to have plants that would otherwise not be available at any price. While my heart resides with small hybridizers, my head says it's not possible to stop the possible. The world moves on, don't get in the dust cloud, use it to your advantage...change is inevitable. Start your own TC lab!!